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Open Docs
Posted by daniel on August 19, 2004 at 09:39 AM | Comments (15)
J2SE and other Sun docs removed from JDocs.com
JDocs.com is a cool idea. Others have had similar ideas - in fact we were approached about a similar idea not too long ago from another company. I don't think anyone was copying from anyone else in this case - just that often a need or an opportunity becomes obvious to more than one group at the same time.
After launching JDocs.com, Rick Ross explains in JDocs Update in
Also in Java Today, "that J2SE, J2ME and J2EE are no longer present on the front page of JDocs.com and asked why? The simple answer is that Sun has asked us to remove those APIs from the system and informs us that its business interests are not served by allowing them to be included. I take responsibility for not having obtained formal permission in advance, and I was foolish to imagine Sun would naturally want to help us deliver the best possible service to Java developers. I'm sorry that we are not presently able to provide them."
There was a story a couple of weeks ago about a publication to be called "iPodWorld" that had to change their name because they forgot to check with Apple first. In some ways I feel for Rick and Matt - they were trying to do something positive, but there is that phrase from the Java docs download that says "Except as provided under the following license, no part of the Specification may be reproduced in any form by any means without the prior written authorization of Sun Microsystems, Inc. ("Sun") and its licensors, if any." Again, I get that Rick is trying to provide a service but I do think his sentence "I was foolish to imagine Sun would naturally want to help us deliver the best possible service to Java developers" is fairly aggressive and doesn't help with his efforts "in active discussions with Sun, and we're doing our best to understand and address the foundations of Sun's concerns." What do you think?
Daniel Sevarese is not a fan of what he considers to be the overuse of static methods. In When Static Methods and Code Collide he writes that dependence on global variables or system properties is limiting. He writes "static methods preclude the ability for a program to customize behavior or implement generic algorithms using polymorphism. It can be tempting to lock up stateless algorithms into static methods instead of creating interfaces and class implementations. If you resist the temptation, you can make a class library more flexible and make the job of an application developer easier."
In today's Weblogs, Ed Burns introduces you to ourfaces, an open source repository of UI components for JavaServer Faces.
Now that Malcolm Davis has downloaded the 4.0 version of NetBeans, he revisits his thoughts about native look and feel.
John Reynolds says that "Re-implementing the Tapestry Hangman Application using the Echo web component framework provides a lot of insight into both frameworks."
Do you
Synchronize access to shared mutable data? In today's Forums, Ron Hitchens says "Do you fully understand the (often non-obvious) behavior specified by the Java Memory Model? Have you ever used flags for inter-thread notification (like the thread termination example) without doing the proper synchronization? How about the double-check lazy initialization idiom? Did you (like most of us) "invent" this clever scheme to avoid synchronization overhead?"
JavaKiddy weighs in on Help Wanted Ads saying
"I guess the golden rules are:- (1) specify only those skills you want (2) if you feel you must expand on (1), make sure you know what you are talking about - more importantly make sure you're clear as to why you're asking (3) never never never put something in an ad simply because it's the latest buzzword or hip-n-trendy technology - it may sound cutting edge, but you'll also slash the size of your audience with each buzzword."
With regards to testability outside of containers, ipreuss writes "A serlvet actually is, yes. And that a JSP isn't, is a good argument for putting as little logic into it as possible. The reason simply is that testing inside a container typically significantly decreases the performance of the tests, and thereby reduces feedback."
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Comments
Comments are listed in date ascending order (oldest first) | Post Comment
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Rick Ross is an Icon of patience.
I think its a joke to think anything Rick Ross says is aggressive. Rick has more patience, goodwill and passion for the Java cause than anyone I've ever met. Rick Ross is a one man (now a two man) Java marketing machine doing more Sun's image than other person on the planet. And unlike others, his positive sentiment is backed up by positive actions going back years. And although it would never happen, I wonder the damage Rick could cause if he gave up on Java; or even turned to .NET? Rick would be wise to use this position of power to his advantage but he never has.
So, no. I don't think Rick has to apologise to Sun; perhaps the other way round. Sun have acted in bad faith and showed a careless disrespect for one their greatest and most tireless allies. After all he's done for them, they couldn't even give him the decency of a rational dialogue before sending in the hounds...
Posted by: brendonm on August 19, 2004 at 10:53 AM
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Obvious lesson: Licensing matters, it's the fundamental issue
Hi Daniel,
as you rightfully point out, the documentation license on JDK docs does not allow them to be reproduced without going through legal hoops. End of story, essentially: Sun has all the right to step down on a blatant violation of its licensing terms.
Surprisingly, wven prominent Java developers ocassionally seem to be unaware of the legal issues surrounding the Java(TM) platform. As a quick google search[1] shows, many people seem to have trouble interpreting Sun's documentation's license terms they way Sun interprets them.
I'd suggest that Sun provides a prominently placed, extensive FAQ on what they consider to be within the bounds of the licesing agreements for their Java(TM) technology, and what they consider to be clearly outside it. I think that would help prevent such misunderstandings in the future.
As this event shows, when your customers don't understand your licensing terms, you end up with bad feelings on all sides. Maybe that could be an incentive to clarify the terms, or even simplify them. :)
On a side note, I take from your remarks about another company approaching Sun with a similar idea, that a Sun business partner may provide a similar service in the future. So I assume that part of the motivation behind approaching JDocs.com has been to avoid problems with that business partner. So, what's the chance of seeing Google text ads for Cosmopolitan next to the java.swing.text.Style API docs for 1.5 on java.net in the future? :)
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Java%28TM%29+2+SDK+documentation%22&btnG=Search
Posted by: robilad on August 19, 2004 at 11:08 AM
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Obvious lesson: Licensing matters, it's the fundamental issue
Well, what it sees as a blatant violation of its terms ;)
Posted by: robilad on August 19, 2004 at 11:10 AM
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Rick Ross is an Icon of patience.
I second that. Rick has made an enormous contribution to Java over a long period of time. The man deserves a lot of credit.
Posted by: dgilbert on August 19, 2004 at 11:11 AM
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JDocs and Sun
I think Sun is being unreasonable here - JDocs is a community project to help Java developers and not really a moneymaking operation that is going to charge people to use this service. JavaLobby is a grassroots effort to further the Java platform and Sun should appreciate their efforts and not stomp on them. I understand that the javadocs are Sun's IP but what JDocs is doing is not taking away from that.
I just think that this is another boneheaded move by Sun. I wish they would take a chapter from Microsoft on how they deal with user communities.
--Vinny
Posted by: vscarpenter on August 19, 2004 at 11:12 AM
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How about this
Can't JDocs be modified so that it serves up the original Javadocs from Sun's web site, which should be legal, but puts the user comments in a separate HTML frame? Somewhat similar to the way that Third voice service used to work I gues.
Posted by: clamprecht on August 19, 2004 at 01:24 PM
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Necessary first step
While the bruised feelings at Javalobby are very regrettable, I understand why Sun really had to do this. To my limited understanding (IANAL); if they witness a clear violation, and do nothing about it, they legally weaken their claim to assert copyright against others.
It seems to me in everyone's best interest to allow JDocs carry the runtime APIs.
Yet Sun is clearly holding all the cards here; I am curious if they will agree, but stipulate no adverts placed in their APIs. After all, would they really like to see a giant ad for .NET splashed in their docs?
Posted by: cajo on August 19, 2004 at 01:46 PM
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Its most unbliveable move from SUN
Im wondring about Sun ,
How sun could tell JDocs to remove its J2** API documentation from this very good site?
is there any purpose other than improving Java API documentation , and helping java cummunity for faster achieving help and guid for java APIs beyond Jdocs?
Im wondring about this , i hope sun Let them to put the j2** api on the site again :) .
Posted by: kalali on August 19, 2004 at 02:30 PM
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re: Rick Ross is an Icon of patience.
That's a matter of opinion really isn't it? I mean, who is Rick Ross, really?
If James Gosling gave up on Java, left Sun and went to work on .Net for Microsoft, this is something that would have a dramatic effect on the Java space.
Has Ross been a core contributor to Java? Is he a JCP spec lead, is he essential to the development of popular open source Java projects? Is he really -that- well known outside of the JL community? I don't think so.
Therefore exactly why is he in a position of power? If he was replaced at Javalobby, I expect there would be an initial outpouring, followed by business as usual.
I'm not a Sun fanboy by any stretch of the imagination, but I realise in this case, they've taken the only logical course.
Posted by: jrbriggs on August 19, 2004 at 06:40 PM
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What would Microsoft have done?
As vscarpenter points out, how would Microsoft have handled this situation? Has anyone ever heard of Microsoft stomping on its own communities? The answer is no and it comes down to how Microsoft does business. Which is to view every situation as an opportunity; only viewing it as a threat when every other alternative looks hopeless.
A hypothetical "What if Sun was Microsoft scenario": Rick and Matt launch the JDocs site and Sun's IP legal team finds out about it. After a quick discussion with key strategic managers at sun (maybe Schwartz), a decision is made that this ultimately helps Java and costs nothing. In order not to create the precedent for IP violation discussions begin with Rick and Matt over formally endorsing JDocs (ie. written permission visible on the JDocs site). And 6 months down the line you can use it as yet another advantage of Java and make people think it was your idea all along. Everyone is happy.
Posted by: brendonm on August 20, 2004 at 01:59 AM
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Necessary first step
IANAL, but I think that you're confusing trade marks with copyright. Trade mark violations need to be defended when you hear about a breach, copyright violations can be defended at your leisure (within the legal framework's time span for acting upon them, of course).
cheers,
dalibor topic
Posted by: robilad on August 20, 2004 at 05:04 AM
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re: Rick Ross is an Icon of patience.
I doubt that departure of James would have a dramatic effect on Java. He was back doing research[1] in SunLabs for a few years before he returned back to dealing with Java again, this year, I believe. Didn't have that much of an effect in the Java space, I'd dare to say.
cheers,
dalibor topic
[1] http://research.sun.com/jackpot/
Posted by: robilad on August 20, 2004 at 06:14 AM
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Sun is overreacting
I believe Sun is overreaction on this one. I can understand a bit... Rick Ross often adopt a confrontation tone when dealing with this kind of stuff.
On the other hand, a long time ago (1999) I posted the Java3D documentation in WinHelp format (http://welcome.to/javatips/). I even posted a message (http://archives.java.sun.com/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9906&L=java3d-interest&F=&S=&P=125286) on one of Sun Mailing Lists about it. If you search Java3D winhelp on google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=java3d+winhelp&btnG=Search) this is the first link.
Sun never contacted me to remove it.
I beleive that JDocs is offering a great service. Maybe a way to resolve the problem would be to have a Sun representative as a moderator for comments on their APIs.
I would really like these APIs (all all other standard APIs) to return on JDocs.
Emmanuel Pirsch.
Posted by: epirsch on August 20, 2004 at 06:19 AM
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re: Rick Ross is an Icon of patience.
So you're saying if the acknowledged father of Java decided to go and work on .Net for Microsoft, that is something that wouldn't have any effect on the Java community?
Yes it's a ludicrous statement, but I offer it as an example of something that actually would have an effect -- as opposed to the head of a community website, who I believe is little known outside of that site (the membership of which is a small percentage of the Java developer community as a whole).
Posted by: jrbriggs on August 20, 2004 at 02:00 PM
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Could it be the ads from a competitor in the Javadoc?
Do you think that perhaps Sun might have objected less if their product (JDK Javadoc) had not been used as a vehicle for obtaining ad revenue from a competitor (BEA)? BEA is the true benefactor from Sun's investment in the Java language and the Javadoc, since their ads feature prominently all over JDocs.
BTW, http://zamples.com also features Javadoc with user-contributed comments, with a twist - the comments can contain live code examples that you can play with.
Posted by: mslinn on August 20, 2004 at 10:51 PM
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