Felipe Gaucho's Blog

Netbeans sabotage

Some months ago I adopted Netbeans as the default IDE for my Open Source projects. The main reason for changing from Eclipse to Netbeans was the adoption of the recent technologies like SOA and JEE5 - technologies not officially supported by Eclipse before the middle of 2007 [1, 2]. During this IDE migration, I couldn't convince my office colleagues about the benefits of my choice and I also detected a strong resistance against Netbeans in open source communities and other groups traditionally motivated about new techs. Discussing the role of Netbeans in the Java market with colleagues, foruns and JUG mailing lists I collected some interesting points:

1. The market sees Netbeans more as a technology issue than a productive tool: launched few years ago as an innovative platform, Netbeans still pays some consensum about its preliminary overheads, like it is too heavy to be used... and it is also a too complicated tool. From my point of view it is not fair anymore and these are assertions with no technical support.
2. A good development process should not depend on IDE: conceptually it is perfect. ANT, MAVEN and other authomated project management tools gave us a confortable feeling about portable artifacts like line commands and configuration files. The idea of creating projects that can be edited by any interface - from textpad to websphere - is a core belief in the Java community. Even with the most popular IDEs supporting ant and maven as a default feature, developers and project managers hate the idea of using the built-in features to configure it through the IDE. It is very hard to find a real Java developer that uses the ANT editor of Eclipse to modify the tasks of a project. Usually the ANT tasks are part of the standards in the companies and even if the IDE offers a better way to manipulate it, few people are motivated to innovate in this subject.
3. Netbeans-based tutorials are odd: several good technologies are suffering sabotage due to the fact that their manuals and tutorials are based on Netbeans. The classical example is JEE5 and Glassfish - several times I wrote about the wonderful JEE5 new features and almost everytime I receive the same response: hum.., it uses Netbeans.. do you know how to do that in Eclipse?
4. Good to avoid dependency of Big companies:: everyone who already worked with the IBM suite of Java development tools knows how difficult it is to mix the IBM tools and other vendors tools. In fact, the most common scenario is that or you adopt IBM RAD tools, or you don't!. The new generation of SUN tools, including the open source efforts, suggests something in the same way. Every time I read a blog or a tutorial saying it is easy, you must click here, click there and everything runs ok I feel a tide coupling between the technology being produced under SUN Labs umbrella and Netbeans. Like the Websphere family, we are observing Netbeans family being born. I observed also that people who usually like the IBM way to do businnes, also like the idea of an integrated development platform based on Netbeans. On the other side, companies oriented to light-weight-open-source-eclipse-like tools are trying to avoid Netbeans and also loosing/ignoring a lot of good oportunities of using SUN nice technologies.

My real world experience

During the last few weeks I made an evaluation of JBI/ESB products - specially focusing on Open Source projects because the JBI is just part of a bigger solution for one of our enterprise clients. After reviewing the documentation of three or four projects it was clear for me that OpenESB was a strong candidate for supporting our project. Well documented, SUN support and several positive testimonials from companies using that. Just one weak point: all documentation is based on Netbeans. For me, another good feature since Netbeans 5.5+ is a productive and easy tool to use IDE, but I couldn't sell this idea to my project manager. I tried to discuss the usage of Eclipse in the OpenESB forum and also made some local evaluation about how to adapt OpenESB to our company standards - including the impact on training, documentation changes and the risk of Netbeans adoption. At the end I was forced to choose other ESB framework simply because Netbeans is not part of the company standards.

I suppose Open Source projects could be more flexible than commercial companies with a established development process. But, for now, my feeling about my recent experience is that OpenESB suffered a Netbeans sabotage ;(

The SUN strategy to avoid the sabotage

During the time I was editing this blog entry, I had several interesting discussions with people inside SUN and also with Netbeans and Eclipse users. I cannot remember all names and foruns that helped me in figure out the Netbeans role in the nowadays Java market - but I appreciate and thanks all their valuable opinions. One of these answers comes from Gregg Sporar, a Netbeans evangelist that give me some glimpse about how SUN is planning to retrieve the developers confidence on Netbeans and also how they are planning the integration with other IDEs and the most popular management tools. Below is a fragment of the Sporar mail:

	With respect to the promotion of technologies such as Java EE 5 and JBI
	via NetBeans, I have a few comments:

	1. The reference implementation for Java EE 5 is GlassFish and the
	GlassFish team has built plugins for other IDEs (including Eclipse)
	besides NetBeans.  This is because Sun recognizes that there are other
	IDEs.  :-)

	2. We try to provide with NetBeans a superior development experience for
	building Java EE applications and part of our focus is to make those
	tools available at the *same time* that the Java EE reference
	implementation (GlassFish) becomes available.  The other IDE
	products/projects do not necessarily have the same focus.  The end
	result is that even with the addition of a plugin provided by the
	GlassFish team, the development tools provided in Eclipse for Java EE 5
	development might not always be as good as what we provide in NetBeans.
	But it is important to note that the situation is changing.  The Eclipse
	Web Tools Platform project continues to make progress and the GlassFish
	team provides help in the form of some testing and bug reports.
	IntelliJ IDEA now has pretty good Java EE 5 tools too and I think
	Oracle's JDeveloper is making progress as well.  The point I am trying
	to make is that while NetBeans might have been the first IDE to provide
	support for certain Java EE 5 features, we are no longer the only one.
	And that will help increase the adoption of Java EE 5.

	3. The situation with JBI/Open ESB is a bit more complicated.  As I
	indicated in the comment to my blog entry, I see two issues here:
	deployment and design.  We need to do a better job of providing
	deployment tools for developers who use other IDEs.  The design tools
	are a much more difficult problem.  For now, I do not think we have the
	resources to provide plugins for other IDEs.  One interesting
	possibility is that we might end up seeing some companies adopt the
	usage of the NetBeans IDE for integration projects only.  This is
	similar to the way some developers today use NetBeans *only* for Swing
	GUI development projects because of its Matisse GUI builder tool.  Our
	hope is that by providing a quality tool for building applications that
	are deployed to Open ESB we can entice some developers to give it a
	try.  If that happens, I think there is a possibility that other
	companies will help us solve the problem of support for other IDEs.

* Gregg was not talking officially in name of SUN, he was just taking a friendly discussion with me about Netbeans and about arguments pro Netbeans. I quote some words of Gregg here just in a hope to offer the most fair overview about the Netbeans in the software market, including the SUN effort to offer the community a high-quality open source IDE.

Comments

• And IntelliJ in all that? With a licence for Open Source projects? ;-)

  - Chris

  Posted by: chris_e_brown on February 22, 2007 at 08:45 AM

• Just to add a few comments to my email:
  There are other examples of "only use NetBeans" for certain roles besides Swing GUI development. I used to work with a guy who used NetBeans to setup his EJB projects and then he would switch to a different tool to edit/compile/debug his code. After NetBeans IDE 5.0 came out, he found that he was able to use it *all* the time, not just for project creation. :-)
  So I think it would be great if companies started using NetBeans IDE just for integration projects. They might discover other uses for it.
  On a similar note, I have another friend who does C++ development on Linux. He never had a use for the NetBeans IDE, but now that NetBeans has a C/C++ pack he might become a user.
  The other side of the coin is that by providing quality tools for an underlying technology, we can help drive adoption of that technology.

  Posted by: gsporar on February 22, 2007 at 09:18 AM

• Scott, Jonathan and Rich have talked about the "Cost of Exit" as an important value of standards and open source. I agree with them. Vendors that make it easy for the customer to "move out" will encourage that customer to "move in and try". And then it is up to the quality of the product to retain the customer. - eduard/o

  Posted by: pelegri on February 22, 2007 at 09:33 AM

• NetBeans is a great IDE, but what about the most used "feature" in every IDE: the editor? That's the missing point for NetBeans, in my opinion.

  Posted by: fabianofranz on February 22, 2007 at 11:18 AM

• Have you tried a NB 6 trunk build?

  Posted by: timboudreau on February 22, 2007 at 11:24 AM

• Or if you don't want to live quite that close to the edge with a trunk build... you can always use a Milestone build of NetBeans 6.0. They tend to be more stable. You can download M7 here - just choose "Q-Build."

  Posted by: gsporar on February 22, 2007 at 05:05 PM

• Just to stay OT like the last comments, you can see some of the editor improvements

  Now, back to the topic, I have some colleagues working in a very, very big project in Brazil, with a farm of Sun software products at the server side. But the developer uses eclipse (Ohhh), and the customer doesn't want to change to netbeans, then the customer paid to develop eclipse plugins to make it work (deployment, debugging, testing, monitoring, etc.) with Sun server software. Nice! Ugh.

  What I think about all of this ? Sun is creating a community of users around their products. Sun wants to monetize with that. First Sun makes the product compatible with NetBeans, and if possible makes it to work with Eclipse. And if the community found it to be very good, integrate it in any sort of way.
  

  I agree with you that some Sun products needs better documentation, on how to make it to work with non-Sun products.

  As you, sometimes I suffer when I need to convince someone to use NetBeans, as they feel netbeans is better for some tasks. First I begin doing a Matisse demo, "Oh! Uh!"; second I do a profiler demo "Oh, very good, indeed"; third, VWP "Ehhh, do you have netbeans CDs ?". At the beginning, the developer uses some parts of netbeans, after some time, he become addicted.

  Sorry for the long and (sometime) OT post. Probably this should be a weblog post with a trackback.
  
  

  Posted by: claudio on February 22, 2007 at 08:30 PM

• Netbeans is completely useless. It's too slow to even consider for realworld use, has an unintuitive and intrusive user interface, etc. etc.
  I've tried pretty much every version since before Sun took control of the product, and it's gotten worse with every release.

  Posted by: jwenting on February 23, 2007 at 06:32 AM

• I never tried to write a project (even an example project) with Netbeans. I just opened it, looked around and closed it. So I don't know all its features. I'm using Idea because some of its editor features. So could anybody who is using Netbeans please tell me which of the following features Netbeans has?

  Ant support: show a list of all targets and let the users click on a target and run it
  Maven2 support: I'm still learning Maven2, so don't know what it should be like yet
  Class locator let me locate a class in the classpath or in the source / test directory by specifying some few initial letters in the class name
  File locator: let me locate a file (e.g. xml, properties, html ... files which are not Java files) in the project directory by entering some initial letters of the file name
  Automatically insert (or let me choose if there are many classes with the same name) fully qualified class name in the import section when I type the class name.
  Insert gettes, setters, toString, equals, hashCode
  Let me find all the implementations of a interface, all classes that extends an abstract class and vice versa.
  Go to the definition of a method
  List all places where a particular method is called

  XML/Spring support: for example, if the dtd or the schema says that the tag requires the `class' attribute, then when we finish typing `

  So, if Netbeans gives me all those features, I'll be very thankful and happy and will say good-bye to this expensive Idea right away.

  And one thing I'm not happy with Idea is Idea doesn't show anything in its window when used with beryl 0.2 RC1 on my Ubunty Edgy, while Eclipse 3.2.1 works very well with Beryl. I don't know about Netbeans yet. I wonder if it's a fault of Beryl of Idea.

  Posted by: dxxvi on February 23, 2007 at 07:26 AM

• Hi jwenting ,I suggest you to try to develop a JEE5 system with Eclipse.. just for a couple of days.. :)Suggested implementation:a JSF presentation layer connected to a EJB3 business layer, using a JPA persistence layer. Include also some simple authentication and authorization features...

  Posted by: felipegaucho on February 23, 2007 at 07:26 AM

• I've used Netbeans a lot since version 4 and I've seen it improve a lot over time. I use Eclipse as well but I can't say there is a huge difference between the two.

  I would say though that on the whole the Netbeans IDE is a bit less temperamental and easier to get started with. I like the Eclipse Java text editor a bit better than the Netbeans one but Netbeans is a lot nicer to edit JSP files for example.

  Some of the comments (dxxvi in particular) indicate that people often are not aware of all the things Netbeans can do (most of the things dxxvi mentions Netbeans can do without a problem). Other comments (jwenting) show that not knowing the facts we can still go and spread negative opinions about Netbeans. This is done quite often unfortunately.

  My experience at work is that once people get over their initial reservations to give Netbeans a try they stick with it more often than not.

  Posted by: jmelchio on February 23, 2007 at 07:44 AM

• felipe, I'm doing pretty much just that in IntelliJ 6 right now. Works a charm. Fast, everything at my fingertips.
  Tried doing an EJB 2.1 project in Netbeans/Enterprise Studio 8, every attempt to use anything in the IDE took minutes. Just clicking the mouse on an icon would take long enough to get a response that I could get me something to eat and drink while waiting.
  Suffice to say I gave up and did it in Eclipse 3 instead. Far faster, and it's so nice to have integration with JBoss if that's what you're using.
  jmelchio, if your only reaction to people who don't like Netbeans is that "we don't know the facts", I suggest that you're in denial. Not everyone likes your favourite tool, a lot of people have very bad experience with it and won't touch it again. Maybe if the developers listened to the potential users instead of sitting in their ivory tower basking in their own self image of perfection (which is how your post sounds) they might be able to build a better product, but as it is I won't even try it anymore.
  Your attitude, that if a user has problems it's their fault instead of a potential problem with your product, is however extremely common (especially in high profile open source projects it seems). It's not healthy, and certainly not mature.

  Posted by: jwenting on February 23, 2007 at 08:47 AM

• Once again, I'd like to express appreciation of the fact that Netbeans competes with Eclipse and not IntelliJ. If it is a conscious choice on the part of folks at Sun, kudos!

  Posted by: denka on February 23, 2007 at 09:29 AM

• Hi jwenting,

  sometimes I had the same frustrating experience with several tools - including Netbeans in the near past... but, now things are different: SUN elected Netbeans as a first class product, and several high-skilled professionals are given their contribution to fix the old issues and promote new features... if you have time or opportunity, give Netbeans a new chance - you will be surprised how better is the versions 5.5 or higher. In my daylight job and some basic projects, I am still using Eclipse because I am using that for more than 5 years.. so it is quite natural for me :) but when I try JEE5 technologies, Eclipse is not ready.. than I use Netbeans and I am very satisfied with the quality of the recent versions...

  Posted by: felipegaucho on February 23, 2007 at 09:43 AM

• Netbeans 6.0 M7 is really a great step forward compared to 5.5, most stuff I missed from eclipse is now implemented (javadoc warnings, proper completion, better getter/setter creation, ...).

  Posted by: francisdb on February 23, 2007 at 10:05 AM

• if netbeans won't cope with my pre-existing ant build file, then forget it.

  if netbeans won't support subversion out of the box, then forget it.

  if all netbeans is aiming at is being marginally better than eclipse, then forget it.
  

  Posted by: feshenga on February 23, 2007 at 12:04 PM

• Using netbeans is not much fun. I just use it because I can't stand Eclipse's attitude of just giving you a peephole glimpse at your code (and I consider it a waste of time to beat Eclipse over the head until I get a halfway decent view on my projects and code).

  Netbeans is a resource hog. Netbeans crashes - a deadly sin for a development tool. Netbeans is slow and unresponsive, and Netbeans developers have never heard of activating the busy cursor if something takes a little bit longer. Netbeans doesn't get a single configuration dialog right and doesn't have them in a place where one would expect them. The documentation is a joke. Typical blablabla, telling you the obvious (use cursor down to get to the next line ...). And I really don't need a news and blog feed reader or a chat in an IDE. But the worst is when you write a bug report and watch the netbeans developers living in lala land.

  Netbeans pisses every first-time user off by not having the Sun API documentation integrated (you have to find the configuration option, which is of course not under a Configuration or Option menu item, but hidden away in the Java platform manager somewhere in the tools menu).
  

  Posted by: ewin on February 23, 2007 at 02:34 PM

• Not a good situation when the selection of a technological solution is based on developer's and project manager's IDE preference. Kinda sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Hopefully your project does not fail as a result of an inferior JBI/ESB choice, (and IMO an inferior IDE choice).

  Posted by: huntch on February 23, 2007 at 07:16 PM

• You know this is going to sound kind of picky but the number one thing I don't like about the netbeans editor is that I have gotten used to the way eclipse handles the enter key. And I really hate to say that is the only reason I have not switched or I should say why I don't use it more.

  Posted by: rdjackson on February 23, 2007 at 09:45 PM

• felipegaucho,

  I'm someone who switched to using Netbeans for a new project because, as you mentioned, Eclipse web support is waaaay behind. I couldn't believe Eclipse *still* wouldn't let me use the new simple tag files - it's been what, like a year since I started reading about them? I looked into MyEclipse, but it has a bizarre scheme where if you don't pay the subscription fee every year, the web plugin stops working. Great.

  I was suprised that Netbeans has come so far. I found it to be faster than Eclipse, and snappier. They really did a good job of pushing non-swing tasks off the swing thread - I feel like it's more responsive than some of my native windows application. It's definitely better than Eclipse in responsiveness. It has a lot of autocomplete in places where I didn't think it would be good enough to have them (like annotations) and everywhere in jsp's. It's pretty nice, especially compared to Eclipse which had a period of a couple of years of complete stagnation regarding web development. I suppose IBM sold more copies of websphere developer.

  The downside is that it occassionally has buggy behavior - could it copy my static resources like my hibernate xml files when I do a make, please? I have to do a Rebuild All. And when I add an apostrophe to a comment, it always adds a second one, which I always have to delete myself. Erg. So it's not exactly 100% bug free, to say the least.

  But the one thing I really miss from eclipse is that "when you save the class, the class and any dependencies get compiled right away" thing. That was one of the coolest things about eclipse - not waiting while the compiler loads up...runs...doesn't something..compiles my stuff....finally runs...
  

  Posted by: paulrivers on February 23, 2007 at 10:59 PM

• NetBeans is good, and I've had a better out-of-the-box experience
  with it than Eclipse (haven't tried recent versions).

  But I disagree about using NB for GUI building.
  In Matisse simple things are indeed quick,
  but anything complicated is complicated. And the generated code
  screams vendor lockin - no human wants to work with that
  GroupLayout mess.
  

  Posted by: fredswartz on February 24, 2007 at 12:59 PM

• No human wants to work with GridBagLayout or SpringLayout. So there is nothing new when it comes to GroupLayout. All these three layout managers are part of SE, and all three make you vomit.

  Matisse finally makes simple GUIs doable with little pain. It took Sun ten years to get that far, and I still remember the beginnings like "SUN Java Workshop". But like every previous attempt you have to throw the GUI builder away and hand-code the GUI if it is a non-trivial GUI.

  You know Matisse (or any other GUI builder) is ready for the real world once Netbeans' GUI is itself completely implemented and maintainable with the particular GUI builder. Don't expect to see this happen soon.

  Posted by: ewin on February 24, 2007 at 02:24 PM

• Refer to Visual Studio .Net, Netbeans is another One-Stop-Solution.
  Netbeans' editor is bad, debugger sometimes goes wrong. But these small flaws have a little of influence on our projects. With Netbeans, we can pay more attention to other important things like pattern design and more. Of course, everybody who use Netbeans hope it will improve to more productive like eclipse. Step on it, Netbeans.
  

  Posted by: daiwang on February 24, 2007 at 08:50 PM

• Netbeans is buggy, slow, "ugly". Plain and simple.

  Last time I tried it was to check how well automatic JPA persistence code generation worked with Netbeans. Well, basically it didn't work, even if Netbeans developers claim the opposite. Also it was needed to install that crappy thing named "Glassfish" (50 Mbytes) that nobody outside Sun use. (Hey mates, we want/need/love JBoss, do you understand?)

  On the opposite all I had to do to make automatic JPA code persistence work with Eclipse was to download and install Dali, that beeing versioned as pre version 1.0 is much more stable and easy to use than its netbeans marketingware equivalent.

  What Sun has to do is to leave Netbeans and Glassfish as part of past history. It hurts Sun image. Nobody outside Sun uses it. And nobody is going to use it in the next 20 years. Stop wasting time fighting Eclipse. You go nowhere (in fact Netbeans is nowhere at this moment).

  
  

  Posted by: e_arizon_benito on February 25, 2007 at 10:06 AM

• To add more fuel to the Netbeans vs Eclipse flamewar...

  At my current contract they gave me a machine with less than half a gig of ram.

  I tried setting up and using Eclipse on this machine... but it was unworkable.

  Netbeans on the other hand, while being crippled by the lack of ram, does make it to the finish line, even if it occassionally falls over on the way and isn't particularly fast.

  Yes, I'd rather be sprinting than in a sack race, but hey, we do the best with what we are given.

  So on that basis: Netbeans 1, Eclipse 0

  Additionally, I am using a subset of Java EE 5.

  Netbeans 2, Eclipse 0

  ----

  For home use, I'm keen to see what happens with XCode 3. XCode 2 surprised me by being a much better Java editor than I thought it would be.

  Posted by: rickcarson on February 25, 2007 at 04:28 PM

• There is a reason that Netbeans is not as popular as Eclipse. As obvious from the above posts, and my own experience, including 5.5. To assume that developers shy away from Netbeans only because they don't know it is ignoring the real problems with Netbeans. I believe that many developers (like jwenting and myself) have tried recent versions of Netbeans, only if to try out J2EE and Matisse. But if we are still running away from Netbeans, there are obvious usability reasons. I propose that you start a forum to discuss Netbeans usability issues (more like a discussion forum and not bug report) and you will be surprised.

  Posted by: vhi on February 26, 2007 at 01:01 AM

• I wrote many articles on NetBeans, including two for NetBeans Magazine. I also wrote many articles about Eclipse for brazillian magazines. For most of my JavaEE projects, I work with Eclipse, and with NetBeans for Swing projects. I must say I have a mixed feeling about both tools.

  
  NetBeans mas more features. Even when you consider the myriad Eclipse plugins, equivalent NetBeans ones are usually better, open source from start, or provided as part of the base install.

  
  Eclise has more inovation. Don't take me wrong, NetBeans did a wonderfull job with things like Matisse, but some of them are of no value for many developers (where can you use most JavaEE 5 features outside of Glassfish?). Many Eclipse projects are still very unstable like VE and BIRT, but they provide a vision and an architecture that will probably make then superior in a few time.

  
  NetBeans could improve on that by working more closely with outside projects like iReport and ArgoUML instead of working only with Sun-sponsored projects and Sun-owned code base. This would increase the community and bring more nice ideas. Not that Sun has a shortage of good ideas, but as themselves admit, innovation happens elsewere. While NetBeans focuses on JSF and JavaEE 5 which is not reality for most developers, Eclipse provides better support for Hibernate, Struts and other "non-standard" frameworks that are the reality of most.

  
  Eclipse benefits from a more diverse pool of contributions. And this pool is also Eclipse greates weakness, because many of them leave Eclipse plug-ins "incomplete" so as to not compete with their own proprietary (Eclipse-based) offerings.

  
  NetBeans still has a problem with fundamentals. The editor has serious issues, but no, I haven't tried 6.0. It also inherits many issues from Swing. Even using JDK 6.0 there are still keyboard, font and LAF problems that make it unusable for non-US Linux users. Although the majority of developers still runs Windows and Macs, I'm sure the Eclipse Linux users give Eclipse projects a strength and visbility that NetBeans lacks seriously.

  
  The OpenJDK will for sure help with this, but we won't see the results until 2008. In the meantime, if Eclipse matures some plugins like VE, NetBeans may loose it's fature set advantage.

  Posted by: flozano on February 26, 2007 at 07:06 AM

• The subject of a very wonderful and distinct
  I thank you for continuing excellence
  Thank you

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