Sivasubramanian Muthusamy's Blog

What restrains Java from becoming the trendiest Desktop GUI ?

I don't know much. In fact it is almost true if I say I don't know anything about java at all... But I have used some java web applications such as eshare chat. And I recently used a yahoo messenger on the web, that loaded after flashing the java logo.

Java has been there on the web, but I understand not so much on the desktop. May be this has been Java's focus. But with the Java Desktop, it is changing...

Why wouldn't java become the easiest and trendiest Desktop GUI ? Java has powered several applications, and the java programmers are very creative.

So what would stop Java from becoming the trendiest Desktop GUI ? It could make life easy, it could make life even more interesting. Could develop so well as to make Leopard look like the shell of the bygone era ????

Comments
received till 05 30 pm India Standard Time, Thursday, February 1

@fiath: Sorry but I do have some experience with Java GUIs that goes back to AWT and if it wasn't for the new GroupLayout I would say that the layout managers suck. I do understand their concept and how they help to keep your application independent of the desktop resolution. But when I compare Java's RAD support with other languages, it is just not there yet. And the lack of support for many cool desktop features. We add to wait for Java 6 in order to have integration with basic stuff like the tray. And on Windows, developers still have to resort to binary launchers to make the application start like a native one.
Posted by: pjmlp on February 01, 2007 at 03:28 AM

pjmlp: Swing layout managers are actually very easy to work with, and it is the best thing I have come accross for creating user interfaces. Having said that, I do not use graphical builders to create UI's, and I do appreciate that you need to learn a lot up front with Swing. Hopefully this is something that the Swing Application Framework (targetted for Java 7) will sort out.
Posted by: fiath on February 01, 2007 at 01:11 AM

Trends come and go, Swing is here to stay. I'll make a prediction: "2008 will kick off with a new generation of enterprise applications written in Swing". There I've said it. If you define a Killer app as an application which shakes an industry then killer it will be.
Posted by: aronsmith on January 31, 2007 at 05:03 PM

I see a lot of Java scripts on web but not Java. Maybe we’ll see more Java applications on web if there is a better web framework such as echo2. I recently ran into a flash application at http://roxik.com/pictaps/index.html It’s a very cool application and makes me wonder if that can be done using Java. As far as desktop applications, I certainly would like to see a good Java media framework, a better application deployment and code protection if needed. In my opinion, it is not Java developers’ job to ask users to install Java runtime. It’s Sun’s job. It’s true that C# requires runtime also. But Microsoft can easily make the .net framework as part of Windows. Most desktop applications run under windows not Solaris
Posted by: jdevp2 on January 31, 2007 at 03:06 PM

If I had to point something out, I would say it is the lack of buzz around Java.
Here's the latest thing that Mono folks are doing.

I read on some forum that the biggest problem with Java in general is not the language or the platform itself is getting old, but that Java folk themselves are getting old.

We have a ton of useful apps out there, but a killer app, none. Not Azureus, not Eclipse, none.

Buzz, buzz, buzz.....
Posted by: hchaudh1 on January 31, 2007 at 11:28 AM

well, multimedia support for one. if you want to make the trendiest desktop GUI using swing, you will need good multimedia support and pure java multimedia support is lagging behind all its competitors.
Posted by: walterc on January 31, 2007 at 08:54 AM

Romain: I was talking w/ Chet about this problem re: Timing Framework. the other xml type frameworks javaguy mentioned unless I'm mistaken are for quickly creating your layouts, not for "Filthy Rich Client" type of effects, which is what I'd love to see to be inline w/ Swing's competitors. W/ regards to TimingFramework, what I was discussing w/ Chet(after I suggested MouseTrigger to him) was it would be awesome to hook the TimingFramework to AffineTransform. That way you could easily scale, rotate etc w/out custom painting. But the general gist is that when we can start doing that...well then I think we are moving in the right direction to really open up the power of swing easily. Mind you I have no problems w/ custom painting :)
Posted by: sjlum on January 31, 2007 at 08:36 AM

Swing and all the layout managers are a pain to work with. I wanted to do an small application in Swing and had to resort to the new GroupLayout. All the other layout managers are a pain if you have a background in Delphi/WinForms.
Posted by: pjmlp on January 31, 2007 at 07:20 AM

javaguy44: Many other solutions have been around for years.
Posted by: gfx on January 31, 2007 at 05:02 AM

As Romain says, that is exactly the problem. Who is working on the xml type markup? I hope F3 isn't all there is
Posted by: javaguy44 on January 31, 2007 at 04:13 AM

You give for granted that Java is not the easiest and trendiest Desktop GUI.
Why? Is it just your opinion or is there any fact to support that?
All I can say is that Swing is the dominant toolkit, so people are building things with Swing, and that there're lots of Java applications out there, both Swing and SWT based.
Cheers,
Antonio
Posted by: vieiro on January 31, 2007 at 01:31 AM

Java could become the trendiest Desktop GUI out there. We have everything we need... except it takes too much time to build very cool UIs when compared to WPF, Apollo or Mac OS X's Cocoa/Core Image/Core Video/Core Graphics/Core Animation stack.
Posted by: gfx on January 30, 2007 at 06:50 PM

Sorry for my bad English...

What do you think if I promise you a new paradigm of development very near of XAML/WPF but in Java? What about developing the layout of the GUI in XML in an easy way with fully 3D support (JOGL and soft based), video on texture, MP3 streaming, DataBinding, Java pluggable code (code behind) and so on? Deploying of apps,webs or games could be made by Java Web Start..... How it sounds?

Posted by av6767

Ans: Sounds good, it is not important what programming techniques are used to improve the "Java Desktop", but desktop interface has to be Java- network (at) isolatednetworks dot com

Comments

• Java could become the trendiest Desktop GUI out there. We have everything we need... except it takes too much time to build very cool UIs when compared to WPF, Apollo or Mac OS X's Cocoa/Core Image/Core Video/Core Graphics/Core Animation stack.

  Posted by: gfx on January 30, 2007 at 06:50 PM

• You give for granted that Java is not the easiest and trendiest Desktop GUI.
  Why? Is it just your opinion or is there any fact to support that?
  All I can say is that Swing is the dominant toolkit, so people are building things with Swing, and that there're lots of Java applications out there, both Swing and SWT based.
  Cheers,
  Antonio
  

  Posted by: vieiro on January 31, 2007 at 01:31 AM

• As Romain says, that is exactly the problem. Who is working on the xml type markup? I hope F3 isn't all there is

  Posted by: javaguy44 on January 31, 2007 at 04:13 AM

• javaguy44: Many other solutions have been around for years.

  Posted by: gfx on January 31, 2007 at 05:02 AM

• Swing and all the layout managers are a pain to work with. I wanted to do an small application in Swing and had to resort to the new GroupLayout.

  All the other layout managers are a pain if you have a background in Delphi/WinForms.

  Posted by: pjmlp on January 31, 2007 at 07:20 AM

• Romain: I was talking w/ Chet about this problem re: Timing Framework. the other xml type frameworks javaguy mentioned unless I'm mistaken are for quickly creating your layouts, not for "Filthy Rich Client" type of effects, which is what I'd love to see to be inline w/ Swing's competitors.

  W/ regards to TimingFramework, what I was discussing w/ Chet(after I suggested MouseTrigger to him) was it would be awesome to hook the TimingFramework to AffineTransform. That way you could easily scale, rotate etc w/out custom painting. But the general gist is that when we can start doing that...well then I think we are moving in the right direction to really open up the power of swing easily.

  Mind you I have no problems w/ custom painting :)

  Posted by: sjlum on January 31, 2007 at 08:36 AM

• well, multimedia support for one. if you want to make the trendiest desktop GUI using swing, you will need good multimedia support and pure java multimedia support is lagging behind all its competitors.

  Posted by: walterc on January 31, 2007 at 08:54 AM

• If I had to point something out, I would say it is the lack of buzz around Java. Here's the latest thing that Mono folks are doing.

  I read on some forum that the biggest problem with Java in general is not the language or the platform itself is getting old, but that Java folk themselves are getting old.

  We have a ton of useful apps out there, but a killer app, none. Not Azureus, not Eclipse, none.

  Buzz, buzz, buzz.....

  Posted by: hchaudh1 on January 31, 2007 at 11:28 AM

• I see a lot of Java scripts on web but not Java. Maybe we’ll see more Java applications on web if there is a better web framework such as echo2. I recently ran into a flash application at http://roxik.com/pictaps/index.html
  It’s a very cool application and makes me wonder if that can be done using Java. As far as desktop applications, I certainly would like to see a good Java media framework, a better application deployment and code protection if needed. In my opinion, it is not Java developers’ job to ask users to install Java runtime. It’s Sun’s job. It’s true that C# requires runtime also. But Microsoft can easily make the .net framework as part of Windows. Most desktop applications run under windows not Solaris
  

  Posted by: jdevp2 on January 31, 2007 at 03:06 PM

• Trends come and go, Swing is here to stay.

  I'll make a prediction:

  "2008 will kick off with a new generation of enterprise applications written in Swing".

  There I've said it. If you define a Killer app as an application which shakes an industry then killer it will be.

  Posted by: aronsmith on January 31, 2007 at 05:03 PM

• pjmlp: Swing layout managers are actually very easy to work with, and it is the best thing I have come accross for creating user interfaces. Having said that, I do not use graphical builders to create UI's, and I do appreciate that you need to learn a lot up front with Swing. Hopefully this is something that the Swing Application Framework (targetted for Java 7) will sort out.

  Posted by: fiath on February 01, 2007 at 01:11 AM

• @fiath: Sorry but I do have some experience with Java GUIs that goes back to AWT and if it wasn't for the new GroupLayout I would say that the layout managers suck.

  I do understand their concept and how they help to keep your application independent of the desktop resolution. But when I compare Java's RAD support with other languages, it is just not there yet.

  And the lack of support for many cool desktop features. We add to wait for Java 6 in order to have integration with basic stuff like the tray.

  And on Windows, developers still have to resort to binary launchers to make the application start like a native one.

  Posted by: pjmlp on February 01, 2007 at 03:28 AM

• I see a lot of Java scripts on web but not Java applets. Maybe we’ll see more Java applications on web if there is a better web framework such as echo2. I recently ran into a flash application at http://roxik.com/pictaps/index.html
  It’s a very cool application and makes me wonder if that can be done using Java. As far as desktop applications, I certainly would like to see a good Java media framework, a better application deployment and maybe a good code protection solution. In my opinion, it is not Java developers’ job to ask users to install Java runtime. It’s Sun’s job. It’s true that C# requires runtime also. But Microsoft can easily make the .net framework as part of Windows. Most of desktop applications run under windows not Solaris
  

  Posted by: jdevp2 on February 01, 2007 at 04:44 AM

• There is a recent article: Why AJAX Failed (Then Succeeded). I believe the same type of principles apply to Java.

  When Java started, one of the "marketing" points was tha Applet. The reasons why Applets where not successful was in big part because of Microsoft braking the standard APIs plus all the technology constraints of the time.

  However, now a days, with the current technologies (CPU power, network bandwidth, etc) the Applet concept can be a reality. We can see it now with the Java WebStart.

  I believe that in the mid-term we will see AJAX disapear, and Java in the desktop to come back. The power of Swing is incredible. And I see Java WebStart as an important corner stone in the execution of the vision of the thin client.

  Posted by: elevy on February 02, 2007 at 07:07 AM

• I've built desktop Java apps for the companies I've worked for since 1997. Many of them were huge projects funded with many millions of dollars over several years. That is a lot of desktop Java. A couple of them could have been considered "killer apps" by the people who used them.

  Of course you wouldn't find these apps via google or any other website. The amount of internal software development done behind closed doors in IT departments for Fortune 1000 companies and beyond is enormous.

  Why aren't more consumer apps written in Java? Maybe it isn't the technology, it is the people. First off, Microsoft would never be caught dead developing a consumer app with Java since they don't support it. So that is a lot of non-Java software right there. In other cases, the people developing consumer software might not be Java developers so they're going to go with whatever tool they know. In other cases maybe people looked at Java but it just wasn't practical for what was needed. For example, an application suite for your scanner or a media player.

  Posted by: bwy on February 02, 2007 at 12:02 PM

• In our company we mainly develop swing applications for government ( mainly military applications) and nearly all of them are java. Here is an extreme example, our current application will work on operator consoles of a Search and Rescue ship from which operator will control tactical situation, weapons etc.

  Posted by: denizoguz on February 04, 2007 at 01:01 PM

• Java had a bad start on the desktop.

  In Java 1.0 and 1.1 we only had AWT, which wasn't great - a lot of stuff was missing from it, it was simply not good enough to compete with other desktop GUI building toolkits (Visual Basic forms, for example).

  The first versions of Swing in Java 1.2 and 1.3 were also very bad! Swing was so slow that it was unusable for real applications and it was very hard to make applications look like native applications. I've never understood why the old versions of Swing had their own look-and-feel (the Metal L&F) which was completely different from the native L&F. Who wants something as ugly, slow and strange as the Metal L&F?! Nobody! It's no surprise that (almost) nobody used Java for desktop apps in those days.

  Since Java 1.4, and especially in Java 5 and 6, Swing has finally become a LOT better - it is now really fast and you can finally make applications that have a real native L&F.

  Java is still suffering from the bad start. AWT and Swing have a bad reputation and it will take time before developers start to see that most of the problems have been solved in the newer versions of Java.

  Posted by: jesperdj on February 06, 2007 at 02:53 AM

• Sorry for my bad English...

  What do you think if I promise you a new paradigm of development very near of XAML/WPF but in Java? What about developing the layout of the GUI in XML in an easy way with fully 3D support (JOGL and soft based), video on texture, MP3 streaming, DataBinding, Java pluggable code (code behind) and so on? Deploying of apps,webs or games could be made by Java Web Start..... How it sounds?

  Ans: Sounds good, it is not important what programming techniques are used to improve the "Java Desktop", but desktop interface has to be Java- network (at) isolatednetworks dot com

  Posted by: av6767 on March 01, 2007 at 09:28 AM

• I want you to show a demo.

  Posted by: av6767 on March 03, 2007 at 05:02 PM

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