Kirill Grouchnikov's Blog

Passionate / screaming users

Kathy Sierra writes on her blog that the best feedback you can get is a negative feedback. I fully agree, but with one condition - if the feedback is concrete (it doesn't have to be constructive).

You can download this mp3 file (390KB, 0:24 min) that contains Romain's thoughts on Substance (extracted from the full presentation available from Romain's blog. Here is the unabridged transcript:

... and it might be tempting to use a look and feel just to enhance the look of your application, but by any means please don't use the Substance look and feel. This one really sucks. How many of you are using the Substance look and feel? You can tell me, i won't kick your butt. Nobody? OK, that's OK. So, never use it

Now this is passionate and screaming. If only it was concrete...

I started to feel a little disappointed that nobody in the audience uses Substance, but then the next question was if anybody heard about Aerith and the reaction was the same. Oh well...

Comments

• Substance is the most advanced look and feel in terms of functionality, and you're really pushing the boundaries of what a look and feel is capable of. The TransitionLayout really gets me excited.

  Since it's customizable, Substance is a good starting point for a distinct look and feel (think Apple's Garage Band).

  I'm still glad I more choices than Metal/Ocean, GTK and Motif. Perhaps someday Aerith's look & feel will be available and I'll have even more choices, but I get the feeling that developing a look & feel is a lot of work!

  Posted by: jessewilson on September 23, 2006 at 01:17 AM

• Technically your L&F is very good and as Jesse said it pushes the boundaries. You should also know that Romain is french and french people are a bit more passionate about, well .. everything. Harsh words from french/spannish/italian people should be brought to American English with a certain amount of down filtering. People from the northen part of Europe speaks with less passion but are instead heavy on the sarcasm, something that is not understood completely in the US either.

  If you constantly deal with people from all these places, and you have a resonable feeling for human interaction, you soon develop a translation matrix with different constants for every country.

  So, when Romain sais that Substance "sucks" he is actually not as harsh as you might think. IMO.

  The understanding should go for both listeners and speakers though and in a global world as Java is one have to think about how things are recieved by those without that Matrix...

  Peace,
  Mikael Grev

  Posted by: mgrev on September 23, 2006 at 01:46 AM

• I don't think I'd ever use Substance (well... I actually thought about using it sometimes, but in the end I'm always using my own work ;) ), but it certainly is what I'd like my PgsLookAndFeel to be: Great work.
  The Look certainly is a question of taste. For my taste, you've actually to much animations and it's to different from what I'm used to, but that's just my taste.
  Feature wise, you're lightyears ahead of every other LookAndFeel and every time you announce another cool feature I'm just questioning myself: Well, when will I start to play catch-up?

  Posted by: pago on September 23, 2006 at 03:40 AM

• Kirill & all,
  I said it before, I think Substance is a great piece of engineering. I really like most of the ideas and the way they have been implemented. Yet, I do dislike the look at lot and if I did put that in my presentation it was because I start to see more and more application use Substance and I think it is not a good idea. To me Substance just goes overboard and I think even its original idea (mixing the best from Windows XP and Aqua) is totally wrong.

  I totally understand why you feel taken aback by my comments and I am sorry you take it so deeply or that you think it is not concrete but I will *not* change my mind nor what I said because of that.

  I could also quote of one your blogs for instance: "Did you see the UI? It's even worse than Ocean." I have worked for one year in the Swing team and I have read and heard (and even said) the same kind of comment, about Ocean but about Swing in general, a hundreds time. I know how displeasing it is but there's no reason to start weeping about it.

  Oh and Mikael Grev is quite right, I do swear a bit too much in my presentations ;-)

  Posted by: gfx on September 23, 2006 at 06:27 AM

• Come on kirill, you bash swing and stuff all the time (windows look and feel, timing framework - and that's just at the top of my head for the last couple of weeks or so), so we all know you don't take this too seriously.

  I don't like the looks of substance either but i honestly am regularly impressed by the all things you do !

  Posted by: liquid on September 23, 2006 at 07:04 AM

• The default color schemes are ugly. They are over-saturated and they don't match in-fashion colors. The colors look dated like the original Metal color choices (which in their day wern't that bad, but that day has passed).

  Microsoft spent bucks and commited multiple people just to get the colors for XP and Vista just right. Substance could use the help of an artist who can pick colors that don't clash with the default OS. That fact _alone_ has precluded me from useing substance.

  Posted by: shemnon on September 23, 2006 at 07:04 AM

• Two very capable individuals, clearly some collision is inevitable. That is if one pits them on opposite sides, but I would hope that some collaboration would result instead. Swing as a toolkit is endangered. It may be that even Java2D itself is going to have an uphill battle with determined competition, one need only look to recent strides in RIA by handful of companies to see where its all going.

  In my opinion, the work done by both Kirill and Romain is indespensible.

  Posted by: ide on September 23, 2006 at 07:47 AM

• Hi, everybody,

  Thanks for the comments. I don't take it too seriously (up until a few months ago i've lived in a very hot mediterranean country, so i know what the passion is), it's just that having a non-concrete criticism doesn't help at all. I have a number of users that sometimes are not satisfied with different visual aspects (saturated colors, heavy gradients, ...) and i always try to accomodate their (specific) requests. One example (that i'm currently working on) is a background composite that can be set on any control to allow non-active components be translucent, making them less distracting. This is done after a very specific request that tabbed panes with a lot of tabs form one big gray distracting area. Now this is something very specific (it even cam with a solution) that i can work on.

  About bashing the other stuff. Except Metal / Ocean (and i completely understand the reasons for not pushing them forward), i didn't really bash anything. I don't recollect bashing Windows LAF (just saying that it's extremely hard to follow the ever-moving target and pointing out a few visual inconsistencies in the older implementations) and about TimingFramework... Yes, i do not know its APIs fully (i only read the java.net articles about it). However, when i posed some questions about animating tree / table / lists renderers without changing app code at all, i had no satisfying answer. In addition, i had no answer about whether multiple parallel animations run on the same thread or not. Indeed, i have my own homegrown layer to do the animations which is very LAF-specific. It's not for general use since it's more complex to use than TimingFramework - but it has (at least for me) more capabilities (like automatic coalescing of fade cycles, cancelling the animation immediately, cancelling the animation at the cycle end, running on single thread) which are very specific to Substance / LAF development. In addition, i posed very specific questions, so (at least for me) it can't be qualified as bashing.

  Yes, the default Substance color schemes are saturated. Yes, i love it, i'm a Technicolor freak. That's why Substance was born in the first place (and i agree with Romain that the original goal was tacky, but it no longer applies to this project). That's why the main page (and most of my examples) contain vibrant vivid colors. Will you be able to look past the handful of screenshots, read the documentation and try the test application (not in WebStart environment) - it's your choice. I can't satisfy everybody and there's a plenty of choices. If you don't have time to play with it and see all the choices that the API provides, nobody will force you. Funny how people say "for the majority of users", clearly always thinking of themselves as the "leaders" of the majority.

  The only thing that bothered me in that presentation was that people may take this advice without deciding on their own...

  Posted by: kirillcool on September 23, 2006 at 08:58 AM

• Kirill, I already told you, it's not only about the colors. And people will decide for themselves, it is my opinion, delivered in my presentation. If I had trashed a movie, a video game, a book, a programming language, Windows or an application in my blog or in a presentation, would you have cared? You love your stuff and that's good, but you can't prevent others not to like it and talk about it (check out http://www.cafeaulait.org/oldnews/news2006September7.html). After all, that's what advices are for, because you just can't try everything on your own.

  Posted by: gfx on September 23, 2006 at 09:15 AM

• Romain,

  I know. And that link - you know, i can't take it seriously. See this review that was made in February and compare it to the review made 7 months later. The same exact wording and the project goal that has been changed more than half-year before simply ignored. So this is a classic case of truthiness - i'll just repeat myself without checking the facts and hope people are too lazy to see it for themselves. What are the chances that he actually bothered to run the test application? My informal guess would be zero.
  And by the way - about Metal / Ocean. I have a list of very specific things that i don't like about it, so i wouldn't call it "bashing" as well.

  Posted by: kirillcool on September 23, 2006 at 09:33 AM

• Hello Kirill
  Romain just envies you ;-)
  it might be the reason of his harsh language
  I personally think that you are one of the people who
  move Swing technology further
  Thank you and keep up the good work !
  alexp

  
  

  Posted by: alexfromsun on September 24, 2006 at 08:07 AM

• :)

  I just don't appreciate being singled out among 20 other third-party LAFs.

  Posted by: kirillcool on September 24, 2006 at 05:05 PM

• Hi Kirill ,
  I love the substance look and feel , i never use netbeans ide without
  substance laf . In my opinon, Java SE must be integrated with Substance laf . Pls continue your work
  

  Posted by: index_0 on September 25, 2006 at 03:51 AM

• 
  I'm from the side that dislikes Substance. Some concrete things (just based on screenshots and feature discussions): too much use of mismatched saturated colors (so maybe you should emphasize sane color schemes more), too much airplane cockpit business (as in too many features/widgets/buttons all over the place), watermarks are usually a bad idea because they make things hard to see, mismatched gradients (inconsistent, going different directions) create visual irritation, and again it always just seems so busy.

  That said, some extra widgets (like the new arbitrary components on tabs in Java 6) are needed on occasion. So pursuing common grounds for doing this sounds nice. And I wish more themes support arbitrary color choices. If nothing else, so I can match the system colors better that were already chosen by the user.

  My recommendations: Make your main screenshots more visually pleasing rather than trying to showcase features. Just give a couple examples of extremity to prove it possible. Also, try to tune some of disparity sometime. Make a kinder, gentler Substance, and emphasize that. One that you can look at and feel at ease and ready to enjoy life/work. My guess is that the delta from where you are to where you'd please the simplists among us isn't that far.

  Posted by: tompalmer on September 25, 2006 at 08:01 AM

• Or, after reading more comments, maybe Substance is fine as is. It doesn't need to be for everyone. Different people do have different tastes.

  Posted by: tompalmer on September 25, 2006 at 09:24 AM

• Kirill,
  Most of the commenters have praised the design and feature set of the Substance Look And Feel. Basically not one of them have praised the look.
  There you have it. Despite look being a matter of taste and all that and your preference for colors notwithstanding, you have produced a L&F which looks tacky to most. Forget the customization, you known from Metal/Ocean that people leave it the default way.
  You would be doing yourself and us a huge favor if you accepted this and instead designed a L&F which by default was unobtrusively pleasing.
  I like you work a lot. The look will keep me from using it.
  

  Posted by: sumitkishore on September 25, 2006 at 09:33 AM

• Well,
  i used Substance for some Client Application i wrote last year. It is allready deyployed to more than 10.000 clients!!!

  I don't know what Romian tries there, i respect this work but what the hell he is so angry ? Also i saw the slides from one of this nifty client presentaions, also there was something against substance.

  The least thing what we need is that the pepole pushing Swing begining some kind of war. PEACE !
  

  Posted by: mac_systems on September 25, 2006 at 09:34 AM

• mac_systems- this type of argument goes beyond Swing. The underlying issues here stem from general usability principles and user-interaction design.

  I will be the first to say Substance has some really nice pieces and I like some, (not all, but some) of it. And while we each may like certain 'features' or UI effects, that does not mean they adhere to general accepted HCI principles and interaction patterns.

  I think if you read some basic HCI and design books, escpecially those by Edward Tufte), you find that _some_ of the designs (notably the color combinations and some animations) displayed over the past few days are in direct contrast to the principles in those texts.

  I believe the concern is that developers (who MOST of the time are not good UI designers) will take some of the eye-candy and (with good intentions) and over-do the user interface. This completely negates the job of the client developer - which is to make systems easier to use.

  I think sumitksihore is right on the money. There needs to be a toned-down demo of what the Substance LAF can do. That would go a good way to get even more adoption of it.

  I realize this may come across as strong opinion, and although I am not French :) I do have a passion for making usable interfaces.

  --Bill

  Posted by: wsnyder6 on September 25, 2006 at 10:35 AM

• mac_systems: The audio Kirill is referring to is actually the audio for the slide you are referring to.
  sumitkishore: I do agree with you. Substance does contain good ideas as far as widget or features go but I still think the look is really bad and therefore, I cannot recommend it to anyone.
  Bill: You hit my point with your comment. I used Substance as an example because I think developers could be tempted to use it to create rich, effects packed user interfaces. But beyond the colors and animated effects, etc. I just don't like the appearance of most of the widgets themselves.
  I said it before but let me say it again: I am impressed by many things in Substance, mostly the way it is implemented and some of the widgets that came out of it (see the project Flamingo) but certainly *not* by the global result. The overall appearance just wastes the great engineering behind it.

  Posted by: gfx on September 25, 2006 at 10:44 AM

• Bill, Sumit, Romain,
  Do you really need another version of Plastic / Xerto / Alloy / Pagosoft? There are enough toned-down LAFs out there, so what's the point in having one more? Indeed i'm not as good a designer as a programmer, and i'd be glad to see outside contributions related to color schemes / gradient painters that can be packaged into the core distribution. For now, i'm OK with providing a (very) rich API to play with existing color themes and prefer to focus on the "feel" part since this is much more challenging. I try to put as much of the "feel" part into laf-widget as i can so it can be reused by other LAFs (feel free to put some pressure on your favourite LAF to adopt it, i'd be more than happy to see it).
  And what's wrong with "effects packed user interfaces"? Isn't it all that Aerith is about? I recollect a "stunning visual effects" phrase from that presentation...

  Posted by: kirillcool on September 25, 2006 at 11:05 AM

• Kirill: It's wrong because I think Substance goes to far. And Aerith is only a demo by the way, not a real product. And *once again*, it's not only about the *colors*. You can create good looking apps with vivid colors (check out Windows XP default theme or even Aqua's blue.) I told you that I think the widgets themselves do not look good. You can slap any colors you want on them, they will still not look as polished as the ones in Xerto or Plastic or Pagosoft.

  Posted by: gfx on September 25, 2006 at 11:20 AM

• Well, the fact that krill is posting this isnt that good. If you doing something in swing you often get beaten by so many people.
  Well, i know using Substance isn't the best for all kind of applications.
  On the other side anyone using Synth LnF ? Why is Arith not using Synth ?

  Bill: I havent yet readed any kind of that books.

  Posted by: mac_systems on September 25, 2006 at 11:31 AM

• Beating the same dead horse again - the animations and additional widgets can be turned off with two lines of code, but i guess that doesn't make them as "sensible" defaults. The demoes i've put during the last few weeks deliberately use slower animations to show the effects. By the way, which widgets don't look good?

  Posted by: kirillcool on September 25, 2006 at 12:01 PM

• Kirill, just thinking about all the demos you have put put the past few weeks...
  Really, a demo is just *that* - something put out there to show off functionality - not usually something intended to be a best practice standard. Smart developers should recognize that - and choose the appropriate features for their apps. I think we need to remember that when looking at the Substance (and other demos for that matter).

  There are cases where I would use JPanel fades. There are also case where I would use JTabbedPane tab fades. There are cases where I would use JList selection fades. There are places where I would use pulsating JButtons. There are times would I would use high contrasting colors. But probably not all in the same app at the same time.....
  What would help is for someone to start a collection of these types of effects and the design patterns that they could solve. In fact this has been in the back of my mind for my masters thesis...cataloging various patterns for effective user-centered design. Its been done before (see the Yahoo! Pattern library and Jenifer Tidwells work), but I think there is a lot more work that could be done.

  Apologies for the diversion....

  --Bill
  

  Posted by: wsnyder6 on September 25, 2006 at 01:35 PM

• Kirill,

  I agree with Romain and others. The colors are very distracting and do not compliment each other, but even in the Substance demo you show that one can switch the color scheme (hopefully to something more subtle). It's NOT just the colors (and I personally like most of the effects). It's that the LaF is too damn loud! IT IS TOO BOLD. IT IS AS ANNOYING AS SOMEONE TYPING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME. YOU NEED TO ELIMINATE ALL 2 PIXEL WIDE LINES IN YOUR WIDGETS AND STOP USING BLACK FOR ANY LINE AT ALL. MAKE WIDGET LINES SOFTER.

  Your work is awesome Kirill, I hope you keep going on the effects side. But the overall look of Substance is an eye-sore. Please DON'T be orignal. The users of our Swing applications do indeed want another Plastic / Xerto / Alloy / Pagosoft. Better yet, please look at what JavaSoft has done with their Synthetica LaF. Please, please, please follow this link and take a look at these screen shots.

  http://www.javasoft.de/jsf/public/products/synthetica/themes

  This LaF with your effects would be awe-inspiring.

  -Bryan

  
  

  Posted by: prime21 on September 25, 2006 at 01:58 PM

• Kirill,

  Actually, non-concrete feedback is often the best kind. It often indicates that you're doing something really wrong (from the point-of-view of the user) and in my experience, often that usability gaffe is something very subtle that as a developer you've long since overlooked. When a user's frustrations bubbles up like that, the first thing I do is track them down and either call them or visit with them in person to learn what's the matter. Something is wrong with either their expectations or my app, or both.

  
  I've watched your look for a long time. Swing desperately needs a good cross-platform look. I've been sadly disappointed that our aesthetic tastes don't align, because I think you've created a fine piece of engineering. Either you, or I, are/am out of touch with what represents a good looking UI, and I haven't really taken my observations much further than that. (Though I must confess I have pinged many colleagues and have so far found consensus).

  
  I would love to see Substance succeed, and to that end, I sincerely recommend you partner with a professional designer who can bring to your widgets the polish and pixel-lovin' goodness that would motivate the community as a whole to get behind you.

  My two cents...
  Ben

  Posted by: javaben on September 25, 2006 at 03:41 PM

• Swing's malleability is one of its best attributes, which by extension makes Substance very customizable. This is a good focus to have, as in due time there will be reciprocation for all the amazing work laid out by Kirill. (Quaqua color chooser, the bread crumb bar, etc) Good people will contribute elements of their design expertise which perhaps will coincide more with some of the folks who see the default package as lacking. Although the default package offers plenty of themes and contour renderers, more will be developed thereby improving Swing's competitive stance. Prominent declarative user interface systems such as XAML attempt to provide the power of a rich graphical toolkit, with the ease of creation and customization, an area where Swing can and will excell if we focus on cooperation.

  Posted by: ide on September 25, 2006 at 06:51 PM

• Kirill,
  You know, how sometimes it's sometimes the littlest thing that keeps you from fully endorsing a product? I for one often find myself making decisions based largely on an overall (first) impression of a product unmindful of the feature set. The Yahoo main page has loads of information, but at least initially I gravitated to Google because it was unobtrusive. The iPod is trumped by every mp3 player in features but it just looks damn good - simple and good. Hell, I drive a gas-guzzling Xterra mainly because it looks less soccermom-y than a RAV-4. ,br>
  As a developer, I love your feature packed L&F. It's just that little bit overboard.
  Implicit in my commeting on your post is the hope that somebody will come out with an L&F that is a bit less staid than Plastic and Pagosoft and a bit less candy than Substance. There's still place for one.

  Posted by: sumitkishore on September 25, 2006 at 10:52 PM

• Hi, Kirili!
  In our country, we have a statement, that there is allways a lot of dust behind good horse. Like most of others, I think too, that your colour schema is over-saturated for every day work, but sometimes such colours are perfect to use. An example is demonstrating some program to LCD projector. So keep up your work.
  Gorazd Praprotnik

  Posted by: gorazd_praprotn on September 26, 2006 at 12:08 AM

• Hi everybody,

  interesting discussion going on. I use Substance personally with NetBeans for my day-to-day development. I'd be reluctant using it in a clients application. There is really depends.

  For a financial app e.g. - no way. Also Romains stuff is never an option there. When it comes to more entertaining applications (mp3 players, download managers, ....) I'd consider any type of colorful, animated stuff I can get hold of.

  Posted by: herkules on September 26, 2006 at 01:16 AM

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