Ron Hitchens's Blog

ESR to McNealy: Let Java Go

Eric S. Raymond has posted an open letter to Sun on the topic of open source and Java. With typical ESR directness, he tells Sun that they need to choose between ubiquity or control. They can't have it both ways.

I'm generally in agreement with Eric on this one. I think Java needs to be open sourced to survive. James Gosling has even made favorable statements about open-sourcing Java. The current situation, where Java is buffetted about by Sun's corporate concerns, seems not to be good for Java (or Sun, for that matter).

Comments

• I can't believe this hasn't been considered seriously before
  Of course it's a good idea. As long as the Java Community Processes (JCP) stay in place and there is a mature group of people collaborating, so that Java stays fairly stable, this can only be a good thing.

  1) From a selfish point of view, it would just be great to know that if (when?) Sun goes down the drain, it won't take Java with it.

  2) Another selfish factor - I love Java, I love open source, this seems to be the position of a great many developers who release open source java code. It would be nice if I knew that there would always be an open source platform on which to run my open source code. This would be the only reason I can imagine moving away from Java, perhaps to use Python, just so that I can be 100% open source.

  3) The Slashdot Factor. I don't know whether anyone has noticed, but Java stuff takes automatic flak from a large portion of the open source crowd, because it isn't free. The more people who feel happy with Java and join our ranks, the better it will do. Open sourcing would cause an immediate rush of new people who would use it, improve it and evangelise it for being (probably) the biggest and most significant open-sourcing ever.

  4) The "My God, this bug has been open, with a fix contributed by a user, for 4 years, FIX IT ALREADY" Factor. Much as I love Sun, they have left many bugs open for a lot of time with fixes (apparently) available, which would have been fixed in days if the code was open. Even if people couldn't fix the bugs, they could explain why they couldn't, and at least I wouldn't have to check bug lists every release to see if I can remove workarounds.

  5) Where open source and Java have interacted, the results very often seem to be very positive. In many areas, open source alternatives to the standard Java API are very useful improvements. If Java was entirely open source, any barriers to these Java-open source interactions would be removed.

  Why might it be a bad thing?

  Well, the only possibility I can see is the risk of Java becoming the target for every coder who wants to ram a new buzzword - feature into the language, without really thinking about it first. Nobody really wants each new version of Java to break stuff and change major API in the way some open projects do. But it seems like the JCP is a great way to get round this, by making sure a group of people spend a while thinking about stuff before it is implemented. Presumably the new Open source Java community would be happy to look to Sun still to act as an arbitrator if necessary.

  So go ahead - open source it already! Then people can use it as a mature, flexible, wide ranging framework instead of trying to reimplement something like .net. Linux + Java would be an even better platform than it already is.

  Posted by: anonymouscoward on February 16, 2004 at 09:39 AM

• I don't see the need
  One thing I agree with Eric on is allowing Linux distributions to ship Java with Linux. It saves people the time of downloading it later, and it saves Sun money on resources to distribute it over the net (probably minimal). Perhaps I just don't get it...

  I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but...
  I thought the rest of the arguments Eric made were off the mark. Perhaps I completely missed the point of most of his letter. It seems to me the entire source code to Java is available at zero financial cost. I can download it myself from Sun's web site. I can fix bugs and add new features.

  Maybe I don't get it because I'm a part-time Java consultant building Java systems for the enterprise and a full-time developer for a small vendor. The Java code is completely open and free (financially) - I have no other requirements.

  Linus doesn't accept every patch for the Linux kernel, and Sun won't accept every patch or new feature either. Linus doesn't catch and apply every patch and sometimes it takes Sun awhile to get to certain bugs. Based on Sun's Java consulting revenues alone, I don't believe Sun will ever go out of business.

  It's interesting that a number of people still try and beat up Sun over their license. I honestly don't get it. I must be missing something, but I "get it" I must humbly disagree with Eric on this.

  Cheers.
  

  Posted by: markswanson on February 16, 2004 at 01:48 PM

• I can't believe this hasn't been considered seriously before
  "Open sourcing would cause an immediate rush of new people who would use it, improve it and evangelise it for being (probably) the biggest and most significant open-sourcing ever."

  I doubt there would be an immediate rush of new people. Why would these "new" people come to Java if they already haven't? Because they can modify it? You can modify it already. The source is available. Unless you are referring to people who are going to modify Java and repackage it? How many people would this group number? You think a zillion people are going to rush over to Java and make it better? How? Your average developer wouldn't have the where-with-all to improve Java given the opportunity. And even if they do improve it, how would you decide which competing improvement will be used by all Java developers? Linus?

  Posted by: sleepy on February 16, 2004 at 05:36 PM

• I can't believe this hasn't been considered seriously before
  "Why might it be a bad thing?"

  I think the question you should be asking is "why might it be a good thing?"

  Posted by: sleepy on February 16, 2004 at 05:38 PM

• I don't see the need
  "I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but...
  I thought the rest of the arguments Eric made were off the mark. Perhaps I completely missed the point of most of his letter. It seems to me the entire source code to Java is available at zero financial cost. I can download it myself from Sun's web site. I can fix bugs and add new features."

  I don't think people on this forum will flame you :)

  Try posting that comment on OSnews.com and you'll need a fire extinguisher. It appears that open-source is in fashion now because many people feel it somehow promotes freedom in every sense. I'm not so sure this is the case.

  I respectfully disagree with Eric too. It also seems nowadays, open-source developers get a lot of media time when they evangelicalize open-source. His statement regarding the comparison of how perl and python will replace Java is asinine. Apples and oranges Eric. I think he does developers and computer scientists a disfavor when he makes these brash statements. Each language serves different purposes for different tasks and projects.

  At the end of the day, I think we all simply desire Java to be the best platform humanly possible, whether it is fully closed-source or open.

  Posted by: sleepy on February 16, 2004 at 05:44 PM

• No need
  There's absolutely no need to make such a dim witted move as open sourcing java. Java technology is powerful enough to spread based on it's merit alone. We don't have to resort to such gimmicks to promote java. The technology will stand by itself. I'm surprised that esr came up with such a short-sighted,hollow,top-of-the-head statement which makes so little sense in the present context.

  Posted by: bharathch on February 16, 2004 at 10:41 PM

• ESR at it again...
  Standard move from the chief evangalist of the open source movement and hardly unexpected as he's tried before.

  I wonder how long until he decides that Java programs cannot be called open source because the runtime and compiler aren't...

  IMO opening Java completely could well lead to the quick demise of the platform due to inconsiderate cancerous growth and corruption of the API that would likely result.

  Posted by: jwenting on February 16, 2004 at 11:46 PM

• I can't believe this hasn't been considered seriously before
  He just gave four reasons why it would be a good thing. Try to pay attention.

  Getting more bugs fixed, getting the code more widely distributed and making it easier for developers to debug their own work sound like damn good reasons to me.

  There's absolutely no reason why it would cause fragmentation. Javasoft/Sun own the "java" trademark and can control what gets into the official standard.

  Posted by: cypherpunks on February 17, 2004 at 05:22 AM

• ESR at it again...
  IMO opening Java completely could well lead to the quick demise of the platform due to inconsiderate cancerous growth and corruption of the API that would likely result.

  Wow, you might want to read more about open source.

  Sun giving people the source does not oblige Sun to accept every patch people send in, any more than they're obliged to implement every feature request.

  Posted by: cypherpunks on February 17, 2004 at 05:24 AM

• ESR at it again...
  Maybe not Sun themselves, but just as we have a million Linux distributions and more appearing every day the same will happen with Java.

  Pretty soon we'll be back to where we were with computing in the 1970s and early 1980s, having to write our Java apps against dozens of mutually incompatible virtual machines in order to reach a decent number of potential customers.

  You might argue that most people will continue to use the Sun JVM, but I severely doubt that.
  Many large companies will want to have their own version with branding, different networking and security code, etc. etc.
  Linux users will create their own versions just so they are not having to rely on a company any longer (and of course every distribution will have its own version, often with compatibility issues. Are you running 2.1.34.2.43.2a rc1 b2 or 2.1.34.44.1?).

  That's the cancer I'm talking about, not the single codebase Sun will likely maintain for their own use.

  Posted by: jwenting on February 18, 2004 at 07:13 AM

• I can't believe this hasn't been considered seriously before
  There's several new Linux distros appearing every day, each containing a load of custom code on top of existing code from others.

  Yes, there will be a rush of people repackaging Java to suit their own ideas of what it should be (or maybe just to see their name listed on a website keeping track of new open source releases).

  This will harm the WORA principle. Maybe not initially but after a while all these distributions will start to diverge greatly, causing incompatibilities that will make those between different Linux distros look like nothing.

  A programming language SHOULD have a single controlling entity.

  Had ESR written he thought it was time Sun turned Java over to the ISO standards body and help create ISO Java in the same way Bell labs did with C++ I'd have agreed, but the way ESR wants it will only lead to chaos.

  Maybe his threat of Perl overtaking Java (don't make me laugh, Perl's been around for ages and not making ground while Java is growing) should be read as what he'll do to Java if Sun obliges him: kill it.

  Posted by: jwenting on February 18, 2004 at 07:20 AM

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