Andreas Schaefer's Blog

Sun vs. JavaGeeks.com: Does Sun own Java or only the Java(tm) Language

I do not like legal discussions or disputes because here in the US it is quite often big money against little money and as a single person you are silenced by big corporations' power. I also know that I go on a slippery slope here but I think it is important for all of us to know where and how the name Java can be used and why some 'entities' can use Java in their name and other do not.

In Ted's blog entry about his dispute with Sun about his website JavaGeeks.com you can see that Sun is challenging the use of Java in his domain name. I was completely shocked that Sun is challenging this domain name especially because many other websites are using Java in their name like OnJava.com, Java Ranch, JavaLobby, JavaWorld and probably many more. Not to mention about all the books taking about Java and using the word Java in their title.

I know and respect that Sun own the name Java as trademark for their language but I have a problem to understand how Sun can claim that Java in JavaGeeks.com means their language. We all know that many developers drink a lot of coffee (hot, I suppose) and therefore JavaGeeks.com just means 'Hot Coffee Techies'. Yes, the web site does talk about Java(tm) language but this is not obvious to someone who just sees the domain name. Again, Java is a term widely used in the US for hot coffee and so Java in a domain name does not immediately means Java(tm), the programming language. Again, I am not a layer and therefore my logic of law maybe flawed.

We, the Java(tm) developers, should talk about this and express our opinions to indicate to Sun Microsystem if we approve or condemn their actions. At the end we all may be affected by this.

Long life good Java (no-tm) – Andy

Comments

• I don't understand how Sun can trademark the name of a country.

  Posted by: keithkml on December 01, 2004 at 01:59 PM

• Actually that is not the problem. As with all trademarks they only apply to the scope of there usage meaning in this case if you are using Java for Hot Coffee then it is not violating the trademark. I also would understand if the domain name would be like J2EEGeeks.com or EJBGeeks.com because these are artificial names and are only used in Java(tm). So the EJBoss project had to drop the E in order to avoid violation of the EJB trademark and so now it is name JBoss. Funny, that this lead to some kind of a trademark where Java(tm) projects are often prefix with a J to indicate Java like JBoss, JUnit, JGuru etc.

  Posted by: schaefa on December 01, 2004 at 02:09 PM

• In the US, since the word Java was in common use before the computer language, Sun has a defendable trademark, only as it specifically applies to their programming language.

  Does that mean they have a case? Maybe. Is it worth suing? Definitely not!

  It should be clear from the RIAA, threatening your user base is a really bad idea. If I had to guess, Sun's management probably doesn't like the association of the word geek, with their language trademark. I'm sure this would be much to the dismay of their own Java Geek employees! :-)

  I have found that a little tolerance goes a very long way in this world. Freedom of speech, and the web, are essential human rights, and a valuable 'safety-valve' to prevent insurrection. To me, if someone wants to start a javasucks.com website, that should be OK too, so long as the site is not libelous or dishonest.

  Sun, don't disenfranchise your geeks, both internal and external; they are your greatest salesmen in the long haul!

  Posted by: cajo on December 01, 2004 at 02:33 PM

• I don't think you can use the coffee argument, because clearly the web site is about Java language and not the Java drink.
  However, the suit sounds ridiculous. If the site were publishing an alternate language called Java I could understand it. But surely there is no legal problem in simply using the name. Otherwise there would be no headlines in newspapers including the word Java . In the UK I think this suit would be thrown out of court immediately.
  Surely Sun have the common sense to reach a simple out-of-court agreement: why don't they simply ask for a note somewhere on the front page pointing out that Java in a Sun trademark? Or have they already tried this and the author has refused?

  Posted by: david_griffiths on December 02, 2004 at 12:43 AM

• Java is NOT a word that can be substituted for Coffee anyway.

  I'm not familiar with the case but I'd guess that there's far more going on than Ted writes in his blog. He wouldn't mention information damaging to himself I guess...
  

  Posted by: jwenting on December 02, 2004 at 02:16 AM

• Of course, java also stands for an Island of Indonesia as well as brewed coffee (see Dictionary.com on java).
  I met Ted as a presenter for the No-Fluff-Just-Stuff tour and respect his knowledge and integrity. It also impossible to put all the facts on a blog but I am comfortable to trust Ted that he published the essence of this case and not just his side.

  Posted by: schaefa on December 02, 2004 at 07:36 AM

• It is a fact that Sun must be able to prove that they actively maintain the Java trademark. They have to get at someone sometimes. Nothing to worry about. Give Sun a break, they just lost a major case. Java is still the best thing ever.

  Posted by: jimcp on December 02, 2004 at 08:13 AM

• Oh, great, so you are telling me it is alright that when Sun lawyer loose a big case that they just go and search for the weakest link to smack him?
  The Sun's lawyer are saying that Java(tm) cannot be used to promote any services but clearly JavaGeeks.com does not provide anything else than exchanging ideas. But there a web sites out there which have Java in their domain name and making money of their web sites like OnJava.com and JavaWorld.com. I am not saying that they are profitable but they have paid ads on them which you will not find on JavaGeeks.com.
  I am worried here because you never know when you write or give a presentation about a Java(tm) topic that a lawyer will pick on you just for the heck of it.
  People like Ted helped Java(tm) to become what it is now and mostly without being payed. Now Sun is thanking us by sueing us/them.

  Posted by: schaefa on December 02, 2004 at 09:01 AM

• My understanding of trademark law is that:

  (a) if the owner isn't aggressive in pursuing it, they can lose it

  (b) you can have different organizations using the same word (eg Windows), just not in the same industry.

  (c) In the case of a very generic word used as a trademark (eg Windows again) it may be too generic, in which case you'd (potentially) lose the trademark anyway.

  So Sun is forced by (a) to slap someone over the knuckles every now and again, (b) clearly doesn't apply (they are clearly in the same industry (computer 'stuff')). And neither of the two common uses for the word Java (a place, and coffee from that place) are in the same industry, so (c) doesn't apply.

  But... I agree that it doesn't seem to make sense that they would pick on this one and not the *numerous* other examples.

  I will note that in this case Ted is being rather... argumentative... with the lawyers...

  Now, of course, the key point to note here is that he is arguing with the lawyers... people who get paid by the hour to have arguments...

  Posted by: rickcarson on December 02, 2004 at 04:31 PM

• Do you think it maybe has something to do with some cross posting on Ted's part with references to Microsoft .Net products?

  Posted by: jhook on December 03, 2004 at 10:24 AM

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