Sue Spielman's Blog

Outsourcing in my company? I do not think so.

I just got a phone call from a perfectly nice woman who proceeded to ask me about my company’s IT needs. While on the surface this could have been any number of solicitation calls that I get on a regular basis; this one really struck a nerve from the get-go.

The gist of her pitch was to tell me how the company she works for reduces the costs of software development for many Fortune 500 companies. I politely asked her if her company was an offshore IT outsource setup. ‘Well yes’, she answered. That is all I needed to hear. I have some pretty strong opinions (as many of us do) on the whole ‘outsourcing’ thing and started to tell her them. After all, she called me. I clearly indicated that I was definitely not interested in using their services, but she continued to ask me if I’d be interested in arranging another call so she could tell me what they could do for my company. What part of ‘I’ve got perfectly good engineers and IT staff working for my company and I’m not interested in your services’ didn’t she understand? That’s when I just flat out hung up. But is it really enough to just hang-up on these folks? I think not.

I’m fortunate enough that I actually own my company so I don’t have to deal with the political sewage that frequently seeps down in many companies. The entire situation in this country dealing with the outsourcing of our high-tech industry boils my blood. I am a true believe that the legislation currently being proposed to lower the H-1B and L-1B visa quotas will not go far enough. I think these visas should be abolished until all of the unemployed and laid-off IT workers and engineers who are US citizens are back on a payroll. The fact that a US company thinks that hiring a barely-English-speaking worker in India or the Philippines is going to solve their competitive problems is just absurd. This is such a shortsighted solution that it makes me sick to think that the people in these corporations actually think that they are making sound business decisions. When the high-tech people being displaced by these policies don’t have the income to purchase the products being made off-shore, who exactly, Mr. and Ms. CxO, do you think is going to buy your stuff? You think the worker in India is going to run out and buy it? I doubt it. I’m not speaking as a disgruntled engineer who has been laid off; I’ve avoided that fate which makes me, unfortunately, unusual among my friends. I’m speaking from experience, both as consumer and as a developer dealing with offshore companies.

Are all outsourcing companies a total waste? I doubt it, I’m sure there are some stellar engineers working at some of these companies. Just as there are stellar engineers all over the world. Do I want, or need, to work with them from my office in the US to successfully complete a project? I don’t think so. Will using an offshore development team save money? I can tell you from my experience, it was exactly the opposite.

From a consumer’s point of view, I recently needed support from Symantec Corporation because of a serious problem I was having on my machine caused by one of their products. I bought and downloaded a virus checker, which completely roached my machine. First I got the email support, which was clearly a form letter, of things to try from Manjunath C, Symantec Authorized Technical Support. I can only assume that my complaint was handled through an offshore call center. Ok, I can deal with that, but what annoyed me no end was that I had initially emailed very detailed symptoms and a description of the problem. I am, after all, an engineer.

When the suggestions sent in their form letter didn’t work, I emailed back (again) very specific symptoms, and got the same exact email back. As you might expect, I was quite annoyed since I wasn’t even able to boot my machine because of their product. After more than 5 days of this because they wanted me to pay to be able to talk to a person, I uninstalled the product, demanded a refund, and switched to another vendor. I believe that had Semantic support been here in the States, I could have dialed them (I wouldn’t even ask for a toll-free number at this point), spoken to someone and either have gotten a fix for the problem or resolved it some other way. Perhaps I still would have had to remove the program, gotten a refund and switched vendors, but Semantic sure would have understood the problem that I doubt I’m the only person to have had. Was this just a case of bad technical support, or was it because the training the offshore worker got was focused only within some predetermined parameters? That’s the difference between having a worker, and having an experienced worker. The price that I paid for Symantec having just a worker was 5 days of downtime for my business. And note to anyone from Semantic who might read this: I won’t be using your stuff again for a very, very long time, if ever.

This same sort of difficulty in dealing with customer support happened to me too in dealing with HP recently where a conversation that should have taken less than 5 minutes took more than 20 because of the heavy accent on the part of the offshore worker handling the Accounts Payable for HP. I was able to tell where he was located due to the hp.india.com return address of his email.. Why should I be forced to lose money (my time is money also) while other companies think they have a right to save it? And by the way to HP: having an AP rep on the phone for 20 minutes from India to Colorado is not, perhaps, the cost savings you folks intended.

I want to be very clear; I have no problem working with anyone of any nationality. In fact, most of my career has been spent working with teams located around the globe. What I do have a problem with is working with people who are being hired as ‘cheap’ labor who clearly aren’t qualified or and can be very hard to understand to handle the business situation or transaction required. While many of us in the industry feel like we are being dragged through the wringer and have no choice when dealing with the whole offshore situation. I’d like to suggest that we, as an industry, have a number of choices. Here are a few:

• When you are asked to train the foreign worker to do your job or to support your product line because in 6-8 months they will be doing your job (or the job of a co-worker), simply refuse. And if you must, quit the job. No two weeks notice, just flat out quit. While this might seem like a drastic measure, you’re going to lose your job anyway so does it really matter? At least you’ll leave on your own terms and not be labeled as a disposable worker, not to mention leaving with some dignity. Let companies understand the value that we bring to the success of business in this country.
• When you are about to buy a product, call the company and ask them if they outsource their IT and their customer support before you make the purchase. If they do, then simply don’t buy the product. But make sure you write an email or letter to the CEO or President and let them know flat out why you didn’t buy the product. American companies will listen when their wallets are being squeezed. Maybe we should start industry-wide and consumer aware boycotts of these companies and publicly supporting those companies that support the American high-tech worker. If enough people stop buying the products that are built and/or supported by offshore companies, then I think that American companies will start to listen.
• Last but not least, write your congress-people, your Rep and your Senators. I’m sending a copy of this blog to mine right now. Let them know that the issuing of foreign worker visas in the high-tech industry has to stop. Either that, or make it financially unattractive for companies to do so by hitting them with a ‘we’re screwing the high-tech American worker and we know it’ tax. At least we’ll have it all out in the open for what it is.

Comments

• Sue for president!
  http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/001098.html

  Posted by: stevenn on August 19, 2003 at 12:07 PM

• The classic "sucker" problem in economics
  Outsourcing is just an example of the classic sucker problem from economics 101 :). Using the environment as an example, If it costs $100 to pay to dispose of your waste properly you're out $100, but the community as a whole is better. If everyone follows that, you're in good shape. Now, one person decides to save $100 and dumps their trash in the local stream. One person doesn't really hurt much, so things are still good. Now, another person decides they don't want to be a "sucker" out $100, he'll dump his waste too...and so on until the area is ruined and everyone loses their home/stream/city/whatever due to the pollution.

  It's better for the US to employ it's own, but as soon as one company outsources other's don't want to be the sucker paying more than their competitor, so they do it too, and so on, until the US economy is permanently stagnant because no one is buying because unemployment is so high.

  Posted by: ckessel on August 19, 2003 at 12:57 PM

• Ha Ha
  My solution: USA should try to shut all imports and exports and try to be self sufficient. Strange you wont accept others services but expect them to consume your products and services.

  Posted by: vazz on August 19, 2003 at 01:35 PM

• just a couple of things...
  Reading this sounds like a very reactionary and, dispite the authors assurances, a slightly biggotted point of view.

  First of all I can tell you that an Indian worker would not rank umong the barely-English-speaking worker's the author refers to, since English is widely spoken, and (I believe) an official language. As to her comment that the accent is too hard to understand, imagine my difficulty understanding the American accent (I am English).

  Second. the author launches an attack, more legitimatly, on the benefits of outsourcing. I'm afraid that I can't quite follow the logic used.

  She places the emphasis on poor quality work by sighting one example but then goes on to concede that there are probably high quality workers off-shore as well.

  Is this not the same situation that would be faced domestically?

  Your suggestions as to the step's American's (presumably) should take sound like those suggested in the failed 'Buy British' campaign (this campaign focussed on agriculture but...).

  Overall, to a non-American, this sounds like a (understandibly) reactionary view.

  Posted by: mjtjunior on August 19, 2003 at 03:55 PM

• Re: Ha Ha
  We (the US) are the largest importer of services in the world. The US is also the largest importer of goods. To top it all off, we run a multi-billion dollar trade deficit every single month. How is it that we do this if we aren't accepting the goods and services of others?

  Posted by: nickle on August 19, 2003 at 07:00 PM

• Try asking if a specialist team is available?
  If a company's motivation for out-sourcing is purely financial, outsourcing work that could be done in-house or locally, reviewing the big picture is a good idea as you indicate (but see comments below).

  By contrast, if a company is outsourcing to access specialist expertise this is often justified, especially if they cannot realistically employ that expertise full-time or long-term. For example, I am an independent bioinformatics scientist based in New Zealand (BioinfoTools.com). If a company outsources my time, it saves them advertising and recruiting time and costs, dealing with all the immigration issues, etc. -- they can just get the job done then move on.

  While telephone support can be frustrating, your remedies seem more than little drastic! Speaking English is common among well educated Indians. Higher society in India apparently even speaks English at home - they were a British colony after all.

  Companies should, of course, always assess their outsourced team. That said, I suspect what's needed here is for support teams to recognise requests that are not "run of the mill" and forward them to a specialist team. I've had a similar experience with a large America company with Indian telephone support (not "company S." from your post) - after asking for specialist support they forwarded me to an Australian in a specialist support team. You might want to try a similar strategy, although I'd have to admit it'd be nice to see the support people take this initiative themselves.

  I worry excessive out-sourcing to a degree reflects pushing products out without sufficient in-house testing and the documentation that "should" result. I'm one of those people who can't stand poor documentation and wish venders who do this would get more serious about documentation. It'd be interesting to see an analysis arguing if testing and documentation eventually overcomes the cost of support.

  Posted by: tramper on August 19, 2003 at 10:37 PM

• Re: Ha Ha
  I was not implying that. I was just responding to "When you are about to buy a product, call the company and ask them if they outsource their IT and their customer support before you make the purchase. If they do, then simply don’t buy the product." I should have quoted earlier.

  Posted by: vazz on August 19, 2003 at 11:35 PM

• Re: Ha Ha
  But the product is from an American company (e.g., Symantec). Only the support of the product, and the jobs to do so, have been exported.

  A call to boycott products (regardless of nation of origin) from companies that provide poor support and which practice social irresponsibility sounds perfectable to me.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 06:35 AM

• Re: Ha Ha
  Agreed

  Posted by: vazz on August 20, 2003 at 06:41 AM

• Funny
  I find it funny when antisocial politics of republicans protecting big business at last bumps into its own irrationality. Sooner or later each big guy favoring pro corporate politicians will suddenly find himself ousted because his corporation has found a more cost saving worker.
  Outsourcing is a natural way to make life of other people better, so, generally speaking, it is welcomed in perspective.
  Sue, I bet you are a republican who voted for W. Bush.

  A guy who steals American jobs. :)

  Posted by: krage on August 20, 2003 at 07:20 AM

• The classic "sucker" problem in economics
  Good point. This was exactly IBM's excuse when they decided to export domestic jobs to India, etc.
  Because companies don't want to be "suckers," we've had to create laws prohibiting dumping in streams, and fine those companies which violate those laws. Unfortunately, since companies cannot be trusted to act in the best interest of their communities, the off-shoring issue may have to be met with legistlation, as well.
  My belief is that smaller companies have more respect for their communities than do large, multinationals. Small business owners don't want trash in their streams or own backyards, nor do they want members of their community (the buyers of their products and services) unemployed. It is in their own self interest to act in a responsible manner.
  Put another way, you don't sh*t where you sleep. Constrast the small business to the case of HP and the environmental and health issues faced by workers at their factories and "recycling centers" in China. Not only does China have more lax environmental lawsand enforcement, than does the United States, but the execs at HP don't have to live with the waste they produce or see the faces of the workers they exploit.
  So, let's hear it for the small business owners who stand up for what they believe in and say they will give American jobs to visa or offshore workers.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 07:45 AM

• Communication is a major issue
  I have not had out-sourced project experience, but I've depended on niche software that was out-sourced overseas.

  In one particular instance, a phantom dialog box would pop up periodically (MFC) not a good thing for CAD/graphics tools. After hammering domestic support to find a reason or solution, they conceded that the developers were actually overseas.

  After a few weeks, a conference call was set up between us and the domestic group with one of the overseas developers.

  It was rescheduled several times, because of the time difference - the developer couldn't make it.

  When it happened, We were told we weren't using the right processor, not enough memory not using the software properly, and that the problem really didn't exist. We complied with all the recommendations.

  We spent down-time tracking it down ourselves. Through newsgroups and knowledgebase articles we discovered it was a commonly made mistake in MFC apps.

  After exchanging multiple emails we gave up and worked around it. I heard it was mysteriously fixed in some later version.

  I noticed that the company that marketed and owned the software began to distance themselves from the developers, blaming them...

  Assuming that most code has some bugs, and some requirements aren't found until development or deployment, how does adding another level of indirection and isolation improve things?

  Posted by: d_bleyl on August 20, 2003 at 07:58 AM

• The classic "sucker" problem in economics
  Nice way of putting it.

  And its worse for publicly traded companies. Say John Doe, Pres and CEO of Ethical Industries Inc. decides that his personal sense of ethics won't allow him to pollute, and he decides to be the "sucker." He could very well wind up being sued by his company's shareholders for breach of fiduciary responsibility. And if it doesn't occur to the shareholders, I'm sure some nice lawyer will mention it to them :).

  Posted by: javabear on August 20, 2003 at 09:04 AM

• Funny
  Make life better for whom? Not for the American workers who have their jobs displaced. Not even, as the author, I, and Rober Cringely would argue, does it benefit the company that hires the outsourcing firm.

  The only people it benefits are the Indian (et al) developers, and much more so than them, the companies that hire them. That altruism is swell and all, but not likely the intended goal of American (or European) companies.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 09:46 AM

• From eu point of view
  Yes, you are rigth Sue. I'm an Italian and I try to follow your suggestions, but from my point of view. We (Italian and European) have to stop using US Software, as much as we can. Stop wasting money in M$ product and start using European Linux distribution like SuSe. Stop buying software from company that outsource the call center. For a lot of software I have to call in Holland and to speak with people who don't know italian. Other company produce software without localization, while the most of open source product have manuals and documentation in my language. We can leverage on open source software to free Europe from US software dictatorship. Stop wasting money in US closed source software for all Pubblic Administration (and this is the way a lot of European countries are going).
  We have to start thinking like French who translate every tech english word.
  Maybe we have to stop using SUN products too.
  But are we sure this is the right way to go? Are we sure this is not a jump in the past?
  Maybe we have to think about software and support quality not about engineers and software nationality. For absurd, USA is the country who have more to loose in this old medioeval battle. Remember that M$ monopoly is the USA monopoly too.

  Posted by: faser on August 20, 2003 at 10:16 AM

• Age old issue
  Outsourcing has been going on since ages. The manufacturing industry had shifted base to the Asia-Pacific region ages ago. Same has been the case for agricultural produce being procured from Europe and Africa. I wonder why the huge shout and cry now after all these years.

  Posted by: msdnexpert on August 20, 2003 at 10:25 AM

• Funny
  For the people who do not enjoy all pleasures of American and Western Europe life. You are used to take all you have here for granted while so many people suffer in third world countries. And of cause companies doesn't care about altruism, just cost saving.

  It is definitly a time to place social preferences above corporative. Time to bring democrats into the house !
  

  Posted by: krage on August 20, 2003 at 11:33 AM

• Age old issue
  The difference is that if you lose your manufacturing job, you have the option to go to college, learn a profession, and reach for better opportunities. Development IS our profession, and something we have spent years of schooling and working to cultivate. When technology jobs leave, what are our better opportunities?

  In addition, it may not be in our nation's strategic interest to build one million widgets, but it is in our strategic interest to build and educate our technology workforce and intellectual base. If technology jobs leave the US, students will have little incentive to study science and technology, and we will lag further and further behind.

  If you don't see the difference yet, perhaps you will when some dime-a-dozen MSDN expert in India takes your job.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 12:49 PM

• Lose of IP value another big cost
  Another big cost I don’t think many execs have even begun to consider is the lose of their intellectual property (IP). Think about it. If they think copyright infringement is a big problem with CDs and DVDs, just wait until companies move their source code to teams overseas (especially China) and find out that someone is selling it behind their backs. Their IP is will lose its value real quick when it gets distributed all over east Asia.
  What are they going to do about it then? Fire the guys who sold it? But who will do the work? Of course by then the barn has already burned down anyway. The overseas guys will have control over the company jewels with no loyalties at all to whatever conglomerate farmed out the work to them and no qualms about using it to improve their situation.

  Here’s an even better scenario. Company A farms out the work overseas. Political tensions get real high and the government decides to nationalize their tech industry and takes control of everything. Company A cries foul and wants their stuff back because there’re an American company. The foreign government looses zero sleep over keeping all the work but promises profusely to cooperate over the next few years to straighten things out.
  

  Posted by: broelofs on August 20, 2003 at 12:53 PM

• Funny
  Wonderful, but it is the responsibility of the US government to protect the interest of US citizens before the interests of foreign nations or citizens. Likewise, it is the responsibility of a European nation, or India for that matter, to protect the interests of their citizens before other nations' citizens.

  Or, are you suggesting a platform, "Making life better for Indians, but worse for Americans"?

  Recall, too, that Republicans have offered more support for visa programs than Democrats, so presumably would also be more supportive of offshoring. So, I'm confused when you seem to be in favor of offshoring, but against the Republicans.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 12:55 PM

• What a load of ignorant nonsense.
  This isn't a question of being racist or xenophobic. Sue shows a complete lack of understanding of the offshoring issue, and of basic economics.
  OFFSHORING EXISTS BECAUSE OF RESTRICTIONS ON H VISAS. If you cannot bring foreign workers to the US, bring the work to them. Instead of having a workforce that is mostly American with some foreigners (all the places I've been at have never been more than 20% foreign), now no Americans have jobs. Congratulations!

  ELIMINATING H/L VISAS DOES NOT ELIMINATE OFFSHORING. Indians don't need US visas to work in India, so eliminating work visas will do nothing to stop the migration of work elsewhere. If you beleive that eliminating Hs and Ls will stop offshoring, you are obviously too ignorant to contribute anything meaningful to the debate.

  THE L VISA IS BEING ABUSED. Unfortunately, no one actually believes in spending money to ensure that cases are ajudicated properly and in a timely fashion. Hs and Ls usually take 6 months to obtain, screwing the honest players and benefiting only the very large or unscrupulous. It's much akin to eliminating all traffic enforcement on our roads, then insisting that driving be made illegal because of all the crazy drivers.

  NO ONE WANTS TO BE ON AN H-1B. Unfortunately, employment-based Green Cards take over 5 years to obtain, and no one wants to spend the money to speed up the process. Linus Torvalds spent 4 years in purgatory, and he managed to skip one of the slowest steps! Everyone talks about not being anti-foreign labor, but when it comes to genuinely improving the process, they are strangely silent. They just want to gut it. Spare me you dishonest platitudes, Sue - by your actions we know you really couldn't give a damn about improving conditions for anyone.

  It's funny how in every recession we decide to eliminate immgiration for the 10% of the immigrant pool that are the most educated, qualified and able to make a contribution to America, and instead keep the floodgates wide open to al the unskilled immigrants who are not required to have skills or a job. Guess all you geeks need gardeners and mail-order brides.

  Posted by: lukek on August 20, 2003 at 01:09 PM

• Funny
  American life is much better than life in India anyway. And will this way for lo-o-ong time.
  My point is if I am laid off because my group is outsourced, I will not express chauvinistic feeling toward Indian developers because the guy who will take the job also wants to live and enjoy it. It is just a way capitalism and open market work, and he is not the one to be hated.
  Personally, I still want to work and make decent money, so I believe America needs politicians who will care more about workers and will limit favoring interests of corporations. Democrats historically address social issues much more than republicans.

  According to one theory, US has so-called postindustrial civilization where outsourcing is quiet natural. So, I do not think it is stoppable at least until salary in India will be competitive with american one.

  Do not be confused, an issue may have several points of view with a different personal attitude toward each :)

  A good thing is to acknowlenge existance of all, though ...

  Terminus(http://www.cheblogs.com/roller/page/terminus)
  

  Posted by: krage on August 20, 2003 at 01:38 PM

• thanks for speaking out
  Hi Sue,
  I just want to thank you for speaking out about outsourcing in the hi-tech
  industry. It's good that someone like you, who has respect and some clout in
  the business, is taking a stand publicly. I have written to my Senators and
  my Congress Woman expressing concern over this issue. I think it's a great
  idea at the grass-roots level to encourage people to boycott companies who
  are outsourcing; of course that would mean all the big ones. I was working
  in Apple's IS&T division for six years and left in 1997 because they wanted
  me to help train our outsource replacements.
  Since the company where I was working closed down a year ago, I have had
  several short contracts in and I would say that the number of h1b workers is
  at about 60% of the staff at places I have worked and these companies as well all have outsource work in progress.
  Thanks again for speaking out.
  Beleaguered Silicon Valley Hi-Tech non-worker!
  

  Posted by: shelleyewing on August 20, 2003 at 01:51 PM

• SHOCKER !
  comes as a shock to me, how could such a article (Sue on outsourcing) can be published on a pure-technology site !
  I thought this site was a platform to buid a better 'Java' and not worry who builds it or where it is built !
  

  Posted by: ravneetg on August 20, 2003 at 02:07 PM

• Re: Ha Ha
  And for those unfamilar with the word "perfectable," it is a contraction of the words "perfectly" and "acceptable." Either that, or I made a mistake.

  Posted by: jimothy on August 20, 2003 at 02:48 PM

• Flawed logic
  While it makes sense emotionally to want to protect yours and your colleagues jobs through protectionism, when you consider the larger effects of these kind of policies they quickly become a bad idea.

  Some examples are the protected and inefficient American steel industry, and the Detroit auto industry of the 80's and 90's. In both cases the American consumer and company was harmed by protecting those industries in the name of job safety and American economic strength. Americans almost didn't have the option to buy superior import cars, and American companies basically are forced to pay high premiums to buy American made steel. Sure, the short term effects are that the money from these purchases stay within the economy, but the companies in question benefit at the expense of other American consumers. Now who's benefiting?

  Similarily, if American programmers and consultants aren't internationally competitive (and believe me I feel this issue as well being a programmer in America) then through H1B limitations and outsourcing we're forcing the American economy to accept inefficiency against it's will.

  My point is the economy should sort this out by itself. If it's cheaper up front but projects largely fail outsourcing overseas then the trend should stop quickly and the value in higher local salaries should be evident. However, if there is value in outsourcing of some value then the economy has an obligation to take advantage of that and any artificial limitations will only do damage elsewhere with only the short sited upside of your job being protected.

  Posted by: matt2000 on August 20, 2003 at 03:41 PM

• What a load of ignorant nonsense.
  While lukek's response is very heated, it makes a very good point. Restricting Visas I don't think makes much sense for exactly the reasons he mentions. Don't we want the smartest folks in the world relocating to the US?

  
  The issue is employment and cost. The visa program's intent was to allow bringing in folks when you couldn't find the talent in the US. It wasn't intended as a way to bring in folks who'll work for cheap to replace competent US workers. If you're workers are overpaid, offer the choice to take less pay or find work elsewhere. The law of supply and demand might be painful, but I can understand it. If I'm not worth as much anymore, give me the chance to accept lower pay or some altnerative to add value. Don't just replace me.

  I think the bigger issue is outsourcing under the guise of saving money and I said my peace earlier on why I think the overall effect of outsourcing is negative for the US.
  

  Posted by: ckessel on August 20, 2003 at 03:45 PM

• Troll?
  The author's arguments seems to be based on two (very personal) experiences :

  1) Sloppy coders in India : Well, sloppy code is just that - sloppy code. Ms Spielman, I am sure you have seen many a bad codebases done by domestic programmers. You further say "I’m sure there are some stellar engineers working at some of these companies. Just as there are stellar engineers all over the world." - the same applies to the not-so-stellar ones too.
  "Do I want, or need, to work with them from my office in the US to successfully complete a project? I don’t think so." Probably not, but not everyone would want to decline the oppurtunity.

  Stereotyping programmers in India based on a very personal experience does not sound like great logic.

  2) Incomprehensible accent : I cant remember who said "Accent is something everyone else has". I can assure you that the sorry picture you paint of an Indian who can barely speak English is far from reality. BTW, have you been to India?

  Anyone loosing their means of living will feel angered. But the arguments you propose for supporting your point of view are childish.

  Also, someone from Sun, please explain why this rant ever got a chance to be published here on java.net? Lots of times Ms Spielman mentions "we" with reference to Americans - does Sun endorse the "us and them" usage?

  And lastly, Ms Spielman, if you dont know yet, Sun runs an India Engineering Centre in Bangalore. Before you published this blog here on java.net, you should've taken care to call up Sun and find out if they outsource their IT - as your post suggests. The Java community wouldv'e been eternally grateful to you, had you done that! :)

  Posted by: bthomas on August 20, 2003 at 11:37 PM

• Sue Spielman is On The Mark
  In response to Ms. Spielman's blog, she is absolutely right. And her suggestions on ways we can fight to save careers in this country are dead on the mark.

  I too have dealt with Symantec's technical support. In my conversation I asked the tech where he was located. India was the response. I don't blame India, or Indian people for wanting to better their lives. I don't believe the quality of the technical support or the products are better.

  Further, I believe the outsourcing of careers to overseas companies is destructive to our economy. When large companies like GE, Sun, IBM, Microsoft, Symantec, Alltel, Conseco, HSBC, and Convergys cut jobs here and create new jobs in other countries, their greed kills this country's taxbase. Ultimately, people without jobs can't purchase goods or services. As customers in this country become unable to purchase goods and services the businesses that provide those goods and services will most likely fail.

  I believe that companies that move operations offshore to avoid taxes, cut labor costs and improve the CxO's fat paycheck should be boycotted, and severly tarrifed for anything they send from another country to our country.

  As for the quality of Indian workers that I've dealt with I've often found them to be unable to assist me. Whether its an issue of training, or a cultural matter I really don't care. I don't like dealing with anyone that can't help me fix my problems with their products. Would I rather be frustrated by a tech support person in India or in the U.S.? I would rather deal with someone in the U.S. At least then I know that the money is coming back into our economy.

  Ultimately I think that workers in India working for big U.S. Corporations need understand that they are doing themselves a dis-service by working for half or one-third of what a job is actually worth. Big U.S. Corporations don't care about their workers, or their communties. This is why there are legislative controls that prevent these companies from harming individuals in this country by their actions.

  Oh, and Troll... U.S. does mean us not you (if you are from another country).

  Dwarf Troll Slayer

  Posted by: dwarftrollslayer on August 21, 2003 at 02:16 AM

• Point by Point Troll
  This issue is a personal issue with many people that are losing their jobs in this country. Ms. Spielman's comments mirror what is happeing all over this country, and particularly in this sector of the economy.

  Indians are typically poor programmers. This is a common experience (as many companies have discovered and have taken measures to prevent through process analysis and attempts to train or re-train) then it would seem logical not to send jobs to India. But the big cheeses figure that the losses in productivity and quality are acceptable at the payscale.

  If I am speaking with an individual from a foreign country then I have two barriers to effective communication: first there is the issue of a common language. English is my natural language. Hindu is probably the natural language of an Indian. Inflection, tone and emphasis are common components used in verbal communication. Many Indians that I've known don't understand these characteristics of spoken english; and lets not forget context. So an incomprehensible accent is a barrier to effective communication. If I, an American, have to speak to an Indian living and working in India about a problem I am having with WinFax Pro (Symantec) then I should have the right to speak to someone that is fully conversant and fluent in my language. If I can't understand them, and they are having difficulty understanding my phrasing of a problem I am the one who suffers, and all they have to do is answer the next phone call.

  Finally, I am grateful that Sun allowed Ms. Spielman to express her concerns about Outsourcing IT to foreign countries. Her concerns mirror those of many of us in the IT community that are watching our friends lose their work to a competitor in a foreign country that really doesn't do a better job.

  And who made you the voice of the Java community? If you really like India that much, move. You can get your water dirty, live with 10 or more of your closest buddies in a 2 bedroom apartment. Ride your souped up bicycle to work in 110 degree heat or get saturated in your seasonal monsoons while you get to work for 1 third to 1 half of what your job would be worth were you in America where your water was clean and your means of transportation wasn't limited to your two feet.

  Dwarf Troll Slayer

  Posted by: dwarftrollslayer on August 21, 2003 at 02:43 AM

• Its wonderful
  I think it is wonderful to see a country that has had so much poverty gaining economic strength, which will result in much poverty , disease and suffering being eradicated.

  Long live free markets.

  My only hope is that the Indian films (Bollywood) etc will stop casting the British as villains. A lot of British people dedicated their lives to establishing an education system and free market ideas in India.

  Posted by: c_armstrong on August 21, 2003 at 02:57 AM

• What a pity display of short sighted views
  What a pity display of short sighted views, both economical and societal.
  The drives for western economies, western societies, and western workmanship are more on innovation. However, no so much for the developing countries.
  In any case, if the development is about innovation (generating IP) than outsource has to be thoughtful to be successful - management can’t be outsourced. Frequently, it wouldn’t work because of faults in domestic leadership.
  But if the product has less innovative parts (or of smaller added value), why not outsource those? Should be a win-win situation.
  Antonio

  Posted by: antoniocacho on August 21, 2003 at 03:20 AM

• Building Towards A Better Tomorrow Together
  George Carlin - gross and mouthy comedian
  of the 70's and 80's said - "The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but shorter tempers, wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints.We have more degrees but less sense". And Ms.Sue has proved it again and underlined what George Carolin said.

  My. Sue,

  I'm sorry Ms.Sue but you have lost the respect of many people who brought and learnt many things from your books around the world!! (I bet you have made good money out of it too ;) )

  First of all, this debate shouldn't have happened on such a pure technology site like java.net. Its shame on everyone.. I request the concerned people to remove this from this site ASAP....pls.

  About your remarks on Indian technical competency, you cannot generalise your personal experiences. I have worked with many Americans who didn't know copy-paste will work across applications!! Yet they work in software companies as programmers!!! But I think I'm wise enough NOT to generalise my personal experiences. 'Cuz I have seen many other americans who works better than me. (I'm better than Ms.Sue, huh? ;) ) Ms. Sue, if wanna know about Indian expertise, ask Mr.Bill Gates who brought hotmail from Indian Sabhir bhatia for many million $s. Or you can ask Sun CEO Scott Mcneally who founded Sun along wit Indian Vinod Khosla.. and the list is too long..

  About outsourcing 'phenomenon', the world is so dynamic. We are into so called - the world of Globalization! And this happens not only in software. Americans are not the only consumers of American products. Ask pakistan president Musharraff to know how much he has paid Washington to buy those sophisticated weapons. You can ask Mr.Rupert Murdock how much money he made outside the US through his TV channels. You can ask Pepsi Co. how much they've made by selling pesticides in third world countries!!

  The bottom line is, this world is dynamic and people will look for various options and decide on what they think is best for them. If your company don't want to outsource, fair enough. We understand your feelings. But you pls stop there!! You cannot shout at people when you feel insecured. Thats the sign of a perfect psycho!!

  Ms. Sue, you know M$ started their first development center outside the US & thats in India? You think Mr.Bill Gates doesn't know how to do business? Almost all major software and hardware players have started their India operations and they are pretty happy too. Sun, Oracle, IBM, HP, Honeywell, CISCO...You cannot deny the facts.

  But I understand your feelings that many Americans losing their job and unemployment is increasing. Thats sad too. But thats the way the world is - "You take some and give some"!! Unemployment is a hard reality not only in the US but everywhere else. (same like.. You might think about terrorism when it affects you. But you never knew thats something which was already there! )

  So my humble request to Ms.Sue is - try to understand this world better - and it is complex and interesting!!

  And pls, never again - publish these kind of crap on websites like this! You can be a good journalist in some 'tabloids' down the street and get the applause from those narrow minded people!! But here, at the end of the day what you will see is - out sourcing has not stopped & you have lost your respect of many people who have real stuff!!

  Posted by: sanju on August 21, 2003 at 04:37 AM

• Point by Point Troll
  Hi,

  
  Indians are typically poor programmers.

  Its very tempting to ask you what exactly are you smoking, but I would be very interested to know how you reached that conclusion.

  
  And who made you the voice of the Java community?

  I *did not* claim that I am. I have it from Daniel Steinberg, Editor In Cheif of java.net that Ms Spielman's usage of "we" is not in line with java.net's ideas.

  
  If you really like India that much, move.

  I *am* in India. Did I tell you that the "we" part was confusing? :)

  Peace,

  Posted by: bthomas on August 21, 2003 at 06:13 AM

• Point by Point Troll
  Hey Dwarf, what makes you assume that anyone from a foreign country cannot speak or write English effectively?

  You know, there's a reason it's not called 'American' - they do speak it as a native tongue in other parts of the world.

  Posted by: lukek on August 21, 2003 at 07:27 AM

• Sue Spielman is On The Mark
  >> I would rather deal with someone in the U.S. At least then I know that the money is coming back into our economy.

  Logically, you would therefore support H-1 visas over offshoring, since an H-1 visa holder pays US tax, lives in the community and spends money in the US economy?

  Didn't think so.

  Posted by: lukek on August 21, 2003 at 07:28 AM

• thanks for speaking out
  I just want to add to this that Apple was outsourcing simply because it was going to be cheaper for them than paying California salaries and employee benefits. I see alot of posts here comparing skills of Indian tech workers with skills of American tech workers and I don't think that is the issue. Getting better skills is never why companies outsource... it is always their bottom line. I have worked with many Indian developers both at Apple and since that time and I have found those with excellent technical skills and those with poor skills, just as in the American tech workers. I have found some with good communication skills and some with poor communication skills, just as in the American tech workers.
  The issue is that American workers are being displaced by outsourcing. We of course want to protect our jobs; it is not about how good are our skills , but how much a company wants to pay for the skills.
  In the issue of H1B workers; they are supposed to be hired because a company cannot find their skillset in this country. There may have been a need to bring in workers from elsewhere during the dot com boom, because there was a need. Now there is not...many American tech workers are out of work. If they have the skills, they should be considered first.

  Posted by: shelleyewing on August 21, 2003 at 11:27 AM

• -ill sighted
  Ms. Sue-

  I regard you as a human but definitely not as a HUMAN with values.

  I wonder, if you have any answers for the following ?|?

  If globalisation is the norm of developed countries MNCs, if they could gain more dollors by selling COLAs, Windows software etc. in THIRD world countries than US, what right do you have to say that third world countries are taking away your jobs.

  - I remember saying that, "Globablisation is a
  monster, that affects THIRD WORLD
  FARMER and FIRST WORLD
  PROGRAMMER as well".

  - Have you voiced against such MNCs when
  COLAs completely swept similar industry in
  India such as cocunut water as a soft drink ?
  FYI., COLA industry displaced 2.3 million
  THIRD WORLD FARMERS from cultivating
  COCONUTS, according to the report
  submitted by UN and WTO in 2001.

  - Have you voiced to stop out-sourcing
  and hiring on H1-Bs, when most of the
  developed nations were suffering
  from Millenium fever, which has either no
  impact or small imact compared to the
  developed nations ?|? It's those countries
  from THIRD WORLD stepped-in to get all
  MNCs out of such self inflicted mess.

  Your insinuations are outrageous, audacious ill conceived, short-sighted and far from truth.
  Pls. be rational and make the world a better living place for human kind instead of planting such biased apprehensions.

  Posted by: vijaydy on August 21, 2003 at 01:23 PM

• Professional Ethics
  Hi...I'm here again!! When I read Ms.Sue's article again, i found something which is not good for anyone in any kind of business!! She says - "....No two weeks notice, just flat out quit. While this might seem like a drastic measure, you’re going to lose your job anyway so does it really matter? At least you’ll leave on your own terms and not be labeled as a disposable worker, not to mention leaving with some dignity "

  See - how arrogant and ignorant she is!!

  I've switched my job a couple of times on my own. That time I've been asked to stay back as many days as possible and do the knowledge transition so that the project execution goes smooth and easy. Many of my friends have faced the same situation and they've also perfectly done their job. And thats what we called professional ethics. Ms. Sue doesn't seem to follow these values!

  Whatever may be the situation for anyone to do the knowledge transition - may be the person has been moved from project to another or the person has quit the company for better job & salary or the person is "going to get laid off in near future" or anyother reason which demands a knowledge transition, we need to do it irrespective of the personal feelings. And thats the agreement between the employee and employer. Ms. Sue didn't have the sense to think about it? Or she is just ignoring those professional ethics just 'cuz she is frustrated and feeling insecure?

  Ms. Sue, try to behave urself... people are watching and they are not brainless and without HUMAN values!! Don't try to spoil the values which we 'professionals' would like to keep.
  

  Posted by: sanju on August 22, 2003 at 05:42 AM

• Opinions on Java.Net
  Since it's been brought up a couple of times: These are blogs. They obviously do not reflect (necessarily) the opinions of Sun, O'Reilly, etc, or they would be editorial articles. Bloggers are free to write as they wish. Though there is the intention that the topics concern the Java community as a whole, some poeple have occasionally written on areas not even related to technology. The editors have so far left people alone to write as they wish. If I write something critical of Java, they don't prevent me from posting it because it is negative.

  Posted by: javaerb on August 22, 2003 at 07:20 AM

• very good point
  I agree with Sue on most points.

  And hey, guys, would you stop telling me that "people in India speak English very well"? How does that help me when I hear something obviousely non-English sounding on the phone which makes no sense and does not help me to solve the problem in any way? Should I just assume that I have some temporary speach recognition difficiency or that my mind went wrong and I don't understand English anymore?

  I'm sure some people in India do speak good English. But I guess I, and Sue, and many others who had the pleasure of talking to the India-based Customer Support were just unlucky enough to be stuck with none of them.
  Just think about it - it is supposed to be a CUSTOMER SUPPORT, after all! And how are you going to SUPPORT your customers if you cannot express your thoughts and solutions ??!

  I guess this problem could be solved if US companies took an effort to ensure that all their support people can speak English well enough, but then, it would cost them much more thus defeating the purpose of the outsourcing.

  I agree with others who said that this situation would probably resolve itself in the future. A healthy competition is always good - be it in the car manufacturing or software support. If more and more customers express their displeasure with the current support situation - the pressure on the companies will be on and they will be forced to do something about it.

  Posted by: mjava on August 22, 2003 at 09:27 AM

• Sue - you should apologize for your arrogant remarks
  This is a very emotional and mentally disturbing article, clearly raising questions about the actual intention of the author. It is based on fear, anger, frustration and petty personal experiences. when filled with grief and negative emotions, one cannot deliver a fair judgement but Sue has tried her hand at it.

  I reserve my comments on abolishing h1b visas and outsourcing work as every person is entitled to his/her opinion. But naming india and abusing the quality of indian programmers based on her personal experiences deserve severe condemnation and Sue, if you are a civilized person living in the so-called capital of the "free world", should apologize profusely. An informed person in the US should know that the quality, dedication and commitment of indian programmers are helping launch the NASA missiles, guiding the Lockheed weapon bank, helping millions of government agencies to deliver their promises on time, running the financial institutions including NASDAQ, aiding the sick & old in hospitals across US. The blood and sweat of the "barely-English speaking indian worker" played a pivotal role in IT revolution in the US and in the narrow escape from Y2K debacle. If not for the renunciation of personal pleasures by "poorly qualified indian team", US would have bitten the dust in the race for IT super power loosing all the cushy IT contracts to Europe and Australia. The cheaply paid indian programmer is the victim here after all. The american companies import an indian worker and work him to death with no overtime, no benefits and nobody raises a voice for the personal and emotional turmoil the worker goes through in a strange country let alone the financial turmoil. If my memory serves me correct, US is a country of immigrants, ain't it? Globalization is ubiquitous, if you like it or not, you need to compete with the lowest paid programmer in the world who can get the job done on time. Thats the law of economy, business principle, darwinian principle and history teaches the same. If Symantec hired a poor programmer, yell at the dummy Symantec recruiter who hired him. He should know what he is getting and that alone is his job. India was the only country that was ready with an educated, computer savvy, english speaking population and the developed countries was using (or should i say abusing) the unassuming youth promising them an american dream in the utopian land. Only after they cross the ocean, did these programmers realize that american dream would ever remain as a dream. Last but not least, Sue - take a second and think about this in a calm lonely place - If US had not imported indian programmers, how could the country have survived this gargantuan IT boom, ridden this roller coaster IT ride and stand on its feet after dot com bust and depression, with the meagre computer savvy population that it has at its disposal. If you reflect on this sincerely, you would know in your heart of hearts, that you should apologize for your comments on indian programmers. If you do apologize, then, your conscience will be clear and you will stand vindicated.

  -- Siva, the indian programmer

  Posted by: che_sus on August 22, 2003 at 09:27 AM

• Good and bad
  I won't take a stand on globalization... but don't forget that the US is the biggest proponent of free markets, often at the expense of underdeveloped nations.

  I read statistics that said that India produces 67000 IT professionals a year compared to US's 18000. And these come at a lower cost. I don't know about you but some of the most brilliant people I worked with in the US where Indian programmers. So I don't know where this prejudice against outsiders comes from (insecurity? protectionism? racism?).

  Ohh.. and about those 18000 IT graduates.. When I was studying at a major US University (a State University) I distincly remember that a VERY SIZEABLE portion of the student population were foreigners. Now that may be an admissions policy thing, but I suspect (having studied high school in backward south america) that other countries often have better math and science than the AVERAGE US high school, it was certainly true for me (especially considering that I wasn't that great of a student).

  Kind of reminds me of the movie "The Gangs of New York." Why are you entitled to be here?
  Don't forget that the US got its high tech side from policies that encouraged immigration for highly qualified people (ex: Einstein). I wish some South American countries where as smart in this regard (some are, some aren't)..

  In any case there will always be jobs for techies in the States. Not everyone (as the author clearly shows) is willing to put up with the problems of distance.

  As for all Americans getting IT jobs. Not all Americans deserve IT jobs (neither do all Indians). Certainly the most qualified do.. but not ALL.
  

  Posted by: dog on August 22, 2003 at 11:46 AM

• OK. But I think otherwise!
  First they ignore you then they laugh at you and then you win. – M. Gandhi.

  Sue – DO read this – I insist - http://www.expressindia.com/specials/

  Sue is scared. She is like – “I see brown people”. She is not alone. She cannot compete with an average Indian engineer. (Those from elite colleges would rather spare her for kids. ;-)). There are a lot of incompetent techies who’d rather blame it on outsourcing to keep their job – this article is nothing but a weak preemptive strike!

  This is what happened - First she ignored these skinny nerdy looking folks. Then she rolled eyes and laughed at their English accent and other Indian attributes. When this non-immigrant was contracted and local Jack was fired she was not sure what happened but slowly the thick mustached people from the land of snake charmer became one of her not so favorite nightmares. What she did ignore – or actually was too self indulgent to see was this -

  Understanding of technical issues and problem solving skills are as important as communication skills. People prefer a pidgin English speaking Indian IT guy to one who can rap/rock but is technically naïve.

  An Indian student faces at least 50 times fierce competition to get into an average engineering college as compare to USA. The national level entrance exams for elite campuses and course structures demand more than 16 hours of daily study just to pass the exam – But selection depends on competition as the seats are limited – still India produces 5 times more IT professionals than USA. An average programmer can speak 3 languages. It’s hard work – nothing else. Globalization means a lot of opportunities for hard working people.

  I think the link I have given and what I said is more than enough to give you couple of sleepless nights. Sue, Your hurtful language is going to make these folks even more determined – so beware!

  Posted by: zenec on August 22, 2003 at 01:21 PM

• Be like thousands of intelectuals over thousands of years
  Come to India...

  the rules may seem a bit complicated here at first.

  But people with wisdom are always given great respect.

  Yeah, and life here is very...
  ahem, cost-effective too.

  Posted by: lee on August 22, 2003 at 01:50 PM

• Total Bull Crap from such a good writer
  Hey Ms. Sue,

  I think you should get sued, rather then suing n talking foul about your experiences. Where were you when US Multi-Nationals snatched away the bread n butter of thos 100s of 1000s of India farmers, when they introduced their hi-tech products for farming, we were happy with Bullock Carts too.

  were you sleeping when PepsiCo and Coke sold water for such a high price and swept the funds to your part of economy. Now its our turn, you have to improve your skill sets or just shut up and stop posting such irrelavant personal aguishes on such a public board.

  Researches over time have shown that an Average IQ of American is dull as compared to and Indian guy, your country lacks the expertise, you lack it, and we have it, so we reap the rewards, you gotta bear it now.

  I am writing this since your writing can provoke any sensible Indian or overseas programmer. You wont be prove that you have never benifited from These "Non-English Speaker Indian", For your Information your books or articles which have been sold have been read by Indian Programmers too, this benefited you.

  Dont just post your personal hatred over here, this is not the right place to do it. Sorry to say, you might loose on those Indian Programmers (as customers ) for your books and writings.

  I feel creating a flame over here is just as bullshit as the topic of discussion. Accept my apology if this hit you in any way.

  I would request the weblogs manager to remove this irrelavant post out frm here, that sounds good in public Interest too (since 50% of ur site viewership i bet is frm So CALLED NON-English Speaking INDIAN PROGRAMMERs :D, they wont like either)
  

  Posted by: mitul on August 22, 2003 at 02:56 PM

• Confued Person
  Thank God I am NOT a java developer and never read any of of your books...You are such a confused person.

  >I think these visas should be abolished until all of the unemployed and laid-off IT workers and engineers who are US citizens are back on a payroll.

  On your website I found

  Most of our projects are done on a telecommuting basis, with engineers located in the US and Canada.
  [Source: http://switchbacksoftware.com/aboutus.htm]

  Are Canadians US citizen?

  Posted by: indianguyinusa on August 22, 2003 at 09:44 PM

• Reply to Lucky
  I don't support H1 visas. I've never supported H1 visas. I believe jobs in America should stay in America. I believe those jobs should be filled by Americans. I believe any corporation that axe's American jobs in favor of outsourcing overseas should be taxed at a higher rate, and any products they produce offshore should incur a severe tarrif. On the other hand, I think a Corporation or any business that invests in the people of this country in the form of jobs or training should recieve tax breaks.

  Posted by: dwarftrollslayer on August 22, 2003 at 11:07 PM

• Regarding Outsourcing
  Hi Sue Spielman........
  welcome to the world of globalization, capitalism and free markets. I think you'll do well to stick to writing Java books and technical issues.....regarding social issues you are in a serious time warp.
  First let me express my disappointment that a technological forum is used to push such an agenda. I believe that technology and science is not specific to a particular nation or race.
  Anyway, coming back to the issue at hand...u were speaking about asian workers taking away American jobs. What about big MNCs coolly driving companies in asian countries out of competition purely by virtue of their deep pockets, then snapping up these companies at thowaway prices? Huh, "mergers" they are called. I think, those MNCs were not ready to compete on an even playing field...that's what it was. And that is the same attitude that you are exhibiting now. What about the workers that were thrown out of employment there? Oh...that's not your problem rt...so it does not hurt..For instance....what about the automobile companies that sell their cars in many countries in Asia? I am sure that atleast a percentage of the profit finds its way back to the American economy............and that way back to you. You have to understand.....companies in the USA export their products and Asian countries export their labour. You win some, you lose some.
  And regarding the case of you "pseudo - american" spirit...are you a true American?.....the "true" Americans have been relegated to reservations....where your all righteous attitude does not even dare touch...you'll have to eat your words, that's why!! You'll have to agree, Sue, that America does not belong to you....it belongs to the British, the African, The Irish, The German, The Chinese, The Japanese, The Austrian...and people of many more other nationalities who helped make America what it is today.......Please don't dilute the feeling of the "American Dream" with such petty attitudes.
  If i take this posting of yours to be representing all Americans, i'll be doing a serious injustice to a lot of perfectly fine people there. In the same way don't use your personal experience define what you think of the general Indian developer.
  As a professional, you should have the ability to view both sides of the coin. After all, engineering is not being able to write a piece of good code...it is a way of thinking...a way of life..term it whatever you may....
  

  Posted by: indiantiger on August 23, 2003 at 03:22 AM

• Response to your blog entry
  I have posted my response to your blog entry @
  http://www.freeroller.net/page/arjunram/20030822#outsourcing_a_perspective
  

  Posted by: arjunram on August 23, 2003 at 06:12 AM

• Opinions on Java.Net
  I guess you didn't it right. Its true that Bloggers are free to write as they wish. But this is a Sun sponsoured blog site. And ofcourse Sun expects people to discuss *technology* here. We read these blogs NOT to hear someone shouting at other countrymen as a whole based on personal soar experiences.
  Ms. Sue is free to do so in someother place. But not here!! Again, the point is - this is a *technology site* Hope you read Glosling's writings too. We can't find something of this sort in his blogs. Its just that Ms.Sue is not fit for writing in these kinds of site unless she doesn't wants to discuss technology and ONLY *technology*!

  Posted by: sanju on August 23, 2003 at 06:19 AM

• Reply to Lucky
  I couple of years ago I am was interviewing potential "programmers" graduating from multiple courses, colleges, etc. My employer needed more smart employees who would be able to work on corporative projects. Unfortunately, the problem was very simple – most of them were “stupid”. It is not the matter of training it is something much more fundamental than that. Corporations need people able to solve problem and make smart decisions. Not just “programmers” with the knowledge of java syntax. The lack of candidates with those qualities forces companies to look abroad. I suspect that those winning about foreigners stealing American jobs are simply not qualified enough.

  Posted by: krage on August 23, 2003 at 06:47 AM

• Professional Ethics
  I think you missed the scenario entirely. Let me explain it a little differently. You show up for work one day and you're told to train your replacement. Your replacement is a foreign worker in your country during an economic downturn. This replacement worker, while a good person and all that, has no knowledge of your company, your business, your end users, or the job you actually do. How does "professional ethics" demand that you be nice to sleazy corporate entity that tried to pull a fast one on you by having you train your under-paid replacement?

  Posted by: kbixler on August 23, 2003 at 07:50 PM

• Total Bull Crap from such a good writer
  "Researches over time have shown that an Average IQ of American is dull as compared to and Indian guy, your country lacks the expertise, you lack it, and we have it, so we reap the rewards, you gotta bear it now."

  If you're going to post "Bull Crap" like this, how about a URL pointing to the relevant research? I strongly suspect that you will not be able to provide it.

  Posted by: kbixler on August 23, 2003 at 07:59 PM

• Good and bad
  The most brilliant tech people I have worked with personally have been Indian. Several native born Americans have been close, but it is obvious that there is something about the Indian educational system or culture that produces excellent technical people.

  However, the worst tech support I've ever received on the phone has been Indian also -- a combination of phone lag, accent, time difference and low comprehension of our business on the part of off-shore support desk just made for a total nightmare.

  I'm not against immigration. I wouldn't be here if my grandfather hadn't left Europe in 1939.

  However, I'm most definitely against the current implementation of H1-B that allows companies to pay a lower wage to a foreign worker. I'd have no complaint if I was competing against foreign workers that were being paid the same amount for the same skills and experience. The current system seems to guarantee that the foreign worker will be available for a rate that is lower than average (and usually significantly lower).
  

  Posted by: kbixler on August 23, 2003 at 08:16 PM

• Pilgrim Delusions
  Sue,

  Your pedantic, superflous, at best borderline insouciant rant on feeling threatened leaves me wondering what personal trauma you have written this from. If I read this factually, 4 thoughts enter my head:

  1) Tell these smelly Indians to go back where they came from. Tell them to take back the pentium chip they created. Tell them to take back the fiber optics they created. Tell them to take back 40% of the silicon valley. They don't innovate. They suck. Tell them to go suck in India. Now lets over pay americans to re-invent all of that!

  2) You shift the blame for incompetencies of poor programmers to be the fault of outsourcing. How do you hire competent labour in the Americas? How are those safe guards not taken with outsourcing?

  3) Why is the breakdown not occuring at the level of North American decision making processes in not being able to maintain levels of Quality Assurance BEFORE engaging in such systems?

  4) What is wrong with people adopting and pursuing your American dream in their own lands? Are you the only one entitled to a world of free democracy, liberties, capitalism?

  I can't help but think of a quote from Chris Rock's movie Head of State to describe your attitude, "God bless America, and no place else."

  Posted by: slushe on August 23, 2003 at 11:15 PM

• Total Bull Crap from such a good writer
  Dont know about our Intelligence Quotient but our Ego Quotient can outdo any American.

  We intend to change

  "Amercians are superior "
  to
  "Indians are more superior "

  Posted by: smartas on August 24, 2003 at 03:55 AM

• duh?
  Anyone with good knowledge of DOS/Windows can fixed that Symantec problem of yours. A friend of mine experience the same problem, and believe it or not, I have fixed the problem over the phone.

  Your an experienced engineer, a CEO, a graduate of a reputable university...and I'm exactly the opposite...that should boost up my confidence ;-)

  And may I add. Do you really want to know why some companies prefer to outsource their projects in Asia? let's take web design as an example. The web design rate in the US is four times as high as compared to the rate here in asia. When compared without knowing where or who designed it....they picked the pretty one...the outsourced one.

  US Static Website rate (only text, no graphic)
  average: $80 - $100 per page

  Asia Rate (text, unlimited graphic design, flash):
  average: $20 - $50 per page

  
  Arnold
  Cheap Pinoy Programmer, Quality Guaranteed.

  Posted by: arnulfo2001 on August 24, 2003 at 09:37 PM

• duh? again
  And I'm not buying your books.

  Posted by: arnulfo2001 on August 24, 2003 at 09:41 PM

• Just be fair
  This perspective is completely skewed.

  If you are right, then all these outsourcing companies would fail and the few ones that don't will succeed.

  Actually, it would probably make you more money to -not- point out that companies that offshore will fail .. because then your own company can retain the edge.

  When you go to the shopping, do you buy the most expensive item? Or do you search for the best value?

  Is it unethical in some way to choose the best valued product? If somebody wants to buy the cheaper product (outsourcing) .. why should they not have that choice?

  Were you against robotics being introduced in car factories and every industry? Why are you not a Malthus follower?
  Hey robots are cheaper maintenance and displace american workers too. How come usage of automation is not unethical and wrong? At least when a human is replaced by another human ..somebody is lifted out of poverty.

  H1B's pay their fair share in taxes as well, and pay the full costs of whatever health insurance etc.

  In the end they also increase the amount of products and services available to people and increase the size and efficiency of the economy .. which results in even more job creation for everybody. As long as people need products and services ..and it takes people to provide those to each other, economies have unlimited growth potential.

  I'm sorry that people are currently losing their jobs ..but do you want the country to be a isolated with a reduced market size? Maybe you should re-read "wealth of nations" by Adam Smith? I'm completely serious .. but you probably dont even read these comments .. after all you already posted your definitive vision of reality without any regard for seeking out facts and logic that may contradict your view.
  

  Posted by: johansosa on August 25, 2003 at 06:13 AM

• Why are hiring CANADIANS ?!?
  Why do you hire canadians (I read your company website). It says you have developers/engineers who live, work, and telecommute from CANADA!

  News Flash. Canada is not a part of the USA. Aren't they are already bleeding the US with via NAFTA (that's what all free trade agreements do right?) How come it's OK to eliminate American jobs in order to boost up Canada? Trying to cut costs are we?

  Maybe you placed this viewpoint so that your competitors won't outsource?
  

  Posted by: johansosa on August 25, 2003 at 06:21 AM

• Point by Point Troll
  Hi Lukek, I think you are wrong on this point. It is named English because it comes from England. And not because not only Americans speak it ;-)

  History, history, ...

  Posted by: powro on August 25, 2003 at 06:36 AM

• Why are you hiring CANADIANS ?!?
  Here is the link:

  http://www.switchbacksoftware.com/aboutus.htm

  "Since our entire staff if comprised of senior level engineers, we know what our job is and we know how to do it. Most of our projects are done on a telecommuting basis, with engineers located in the US and Canada. This approach allows us to provide a highly qualified engineering staff at a low-market cost. There is no need to provide office space - all our engineers have state-of-the-art home offices that can be used in any of the development projects we take on. It is the best of both worlds: our clients get great engineers, and our engineers get optimum working conditions and environments. "

  
  So tell us ..do your Canada based workers file US taxes? (H1B's do). And do they contribute to social security and never see the benefit? Hmm.
  

  Posted by: johansosa on August 25, 2003 at 06:50 AM

• Still its not late..
  ...for you to apologize, Ms.Sue! I'm sure you've read all these comments. Hopefully these comments had opened your eyes. We are waiting to hear your apologies... it would be nice of you if you could accept that your thoughts were wrong. You can give it a try to regain your lost respect. And the choice is urs...

  Posted by: sanju on August 25, 2003 at 07:17 AM

• Why are you hiring CANADIANS ?!?
  Yes, the Canadians I work with do pay US taxes because they have a dual citizenship. They are also paid at the prevailing rate common in the States.

  Posted by: sspielman on August 25, 2003 at 10:36 AM

• Just be fair
  Actually, I read all of them. Thanks for your comments.

  Posted by: sspielman on August 25, 2003 at 10:38 AM

• Dilbert speaks.
  I believe that Dilbert has thrown you his support... http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2003080130673.jpg

  Posted by: jbob on August 25, 2003 at 03:30 PM

• Another helpful hint to you
  Ban your books from being sold in India, Phillipines and other countries you hate (if they currently arent being sold there .. dont let them be). That way, they won't be able to learn any of the skills needed to compete. After all, when it comes to IT .. the fewer the merrier.

  Hmm .. or would that be too costly?
  

  Posted by: johansosa on August 25, 2003 at 07:44 PM

• Dual Citizenship or Dual Character?
  > 2003-08-25 10:36:03 sspielman

  >Yes, the Canadians I work with do pay US
  > taxes because they have a dual citizenship.
  > They are also paid at the prevailing rate
  >common in the States.

  Well if you really work only with US citizen then why does that not mention on your website?

  http://www.switchbacksoftware.com/employment.htm

  If you do then change the last line "Legally allowed to work in the US." to "Must be US Citizen". Let the whole world see the real Sue, minus the mask.
  

  Posted by: indianguyinusa on August 25, 2003 at 09:20 PM

• What a load of ignorant nonsense.
  You hit the nail right on the head. American jobs and salaries have been compromised by the outdated and broken immigration system.

  The fact is, that American companies have been unable to import the labour they ened effectively. People who believe that H1-B engineers are underpaid, are sadly mistaken. The H1's I know make six-figure salaries. Cheap labour indeed. These are of course, people who are paying taxes, contributing to the US economy directly., etc.

  The governments failure to address the skilled-labour shortage has lead companies to take drastic steps: Just move out of the US: Go to Canada, Go to Ireland, Go to India. It's happening all over.

  Posted by: mbrock on August 25, 2003 at 11:29 PM

• Dual Citizenship or Dual Character?
  Understandable as it is (the outrageous feeling of being unfairly treated), we should still acknowledge the technical nature of this discussions, however flawed it was from the very outset.
  Therefore I think we should not be personal, even if others wouldn’t.
  Antonio
  

  Posted by: antoniocacho on August 26, 2003 at 12:11 AM

• Why are you hiring CANADIANS ?!?
  Why aren't you replying to other logical questions, Ms.Sue? Don't have much to say? Not getting words? :)

  Posted by: sanju on August 26, 2003 at 06:58 AM

• Try rational thought for a change
  I read about 80% of the responses here from angry Indians. Not one was anything more than an emotional screed. Most of them commited the Rush Scumbaugh-esque straw man logical fallacy. What you are accusing Spielman of saying was never actually said in her article.

  I am also truly amazed at the arrogance displayed. If the Indian education system is so superior, why are these posters unable to form a rational cogent agrument?
  

  Posted by: rockhopper on August 27, 2003 at 12:21 PM

• corporations and offshore labor pools
  I'm an unemployed sw guy, and I really have no problem with the global trade/free-market approach; in fact, I'm convinced that it doesn't go nearly far enough.

  For example, Grasso, the head of the nyse, just got a pay package for $140 million. Surely, if the nyse were really intent on saving money, they could find someone in India or China who was fully qualified that would be willing to do that job for about $500k, which is a 99% savings over the current payout!

  So if these companies are driven only by cold hard numbers, why do you never see corporate board members on cnbc announcing the outsourcing of these particular jobs, even though the potential savings are orders of magnitude higher than the savings due to software outsourcing?

  Posted by: djs1024 on August 30, 2003 at 07:23 PM

• Refuting some ...
  I'm an Indian tech worker working in India. I can understand the the feeling of insecurity faced by US workers at the loss of jobs. What I can't understand is the hypocrisy of complaining about outsourcing while reaping its benefits in the form of more affordable apparel and shoes and a thousand other things, all of which are made you-know-where: India, China, Taiwan. So the day you start preferring expensive made-in-the-US stuff to cheaper made-elsewhere stuff is when you acquire the right to whine. Why are you only avoiding products whose IT or customer support has been outsourced? Why don't you avoid anything not made in the US?

  Sue's experience is typical of most tech support experiences. I've had experiences like that with US-based tech support and I'm pretty sure almost everyone has had these experiences regardless of where the support personnel are from. Sue's just using that as a flimsy rationale for saying that the quality of work is poor.

  Admittedly many Indians don't speak very good American (they speak fairly good English) and are more likely to misunderstand or be misunderstood. That's why they get trained, and most of them work pretty hard at providing good support. What your are experienceing is initial glitches inherent in a nascent industry. In a few years, you will not be able to tell the nationality of your rep.

  Of course a number of organizations are making unwise decisions to outsource. It's not for everyone and might not work in all situations. Businesses and business leaders aren't always rational, and its utopian to expect them to be. Get real.

  Overall, I can see why you are red in the face, but I find it hypocritical, ill-reasoned and a bit naive. It would be sad if the US does pass any more protectionist legislation. Not only would it not be in the interest of free and fair trade (till very recently, India imported more from the US than it exported), it would also not be fair to all the blue collar workers in the US who didn't have the clout of the IT workers to influence legislation.

  Posted by: kingsley on September 01, 2003 at 03:15 AM

• Please dont pose an insult.
  Well, i guess you are entitled to your opinion, but this situation is actually happening. And you posing such statements means insults to us Filipinoes. We are not claiming anything regarding levels compared to everybody else. But this matter should be taken cared of on issues where it resides.

  You are have the right to blabber everything about your company coz you have the right to, but this doesnt give you enough right to elaborate on your experience and try to concern others.

  I suggest we take precautions regarding issues.

  Posted by: masterwarlock on September 03, 2003 at 07:33 PM

• Indians go home...............
  Thank you Sue for speaking the truth. It's exactly what I've been saying. I have been writing congress and my senators as well. I applaud you for not going the way of the other US companies and only being concerned with saving money. We will wind up the poorest county in the world if this keeps up.

  Of course the people from India are offended and have so many negative comments about your article, they are the ones stealing our jobs and don't want to go back to their starving deprived county. I say all visas should be revoked and all foreigners sent back to their own country. All American companies out-souring to foreign counties should pay large fines, levees, taxes, what ever. It's time for America to take care of Americans!
  

  Posted by: asitko on September 04, 2003 at 08:13 AM

• Telling it like it is
  I salute you for the articulate way you've described this issue. I am third generation IT (and I'm no spring chicken myself) and I'm horrified at what has happened to my profession over the last few years. The simple logic of why it is wrong to gut the American middle class is escaping the high-priced minds of so many senior corporate managers. The story of the Goose That Laid Golden Eggs must never have been read to them, if they think they can give us pink slips with one hand and their new product line with another. I correspond and interact with many of my fellow tech folk, and I've heard the horror stories of what happens to American employees in a company that develops a relationship with these bodyshop sharks. What also irritates me is the claim that they are better, when so many of them are at best just average workers. Keep up the good work. The url to your story is being shared and admired by many right now.

  Posted by: betsy_ross on September 04, 2003 at 10:30 AM

• And another thing or two
  If you just quit a job, and the folks at the unemployment office try to challenge your right to collect, I belive that "constructive discharge" is a concept worth looking into here. In other words, I agree with you and intend to take your adice should I ever be in that situation.

  Also, I don't know if you saw the H1b poll on www.sulekha.com back when they were showing people's comments, but reading some of the comments here reminded me of the general sentiments: that we desperately needed these people, that we can't work computers by ourselves, that they caused the economic boom and would cause our downfall if they withdrew, that they are smarter and harder working than us, that we deserve to lose our jobs and homes, etc. etc. etc. And these are FRIENDLY nations? Sounds like a war to me. I don't want my data in the hands of someone who feels that way about me.

  Posted by: betsy_ross on September 04, 2003 at 10:40 AM

• Refuting some ...
  kingsley said:
  >

  Well, I think the majority of us would rather pay higher prices for manufactured goods in the US if we knew it wouldn't result in job losses.

  There is no hipocracy here, I am against NAFTA, normal trade relations with China, and offshoring to the lowest bidder. I would protect both blue collar and white collar workers in America.

  As far as the dialect of Indians, personally that is not an issue. In fact, this is not an issue of race but simply an issue of what is best for America. Indian-Americans and permanent residents of Indian origin would benefit from restrictions on offshoring and non-immigrant visas.

  Our country must do what is in our best interest, and sending high paying jobs overseas is not in our interest.

  Posted by: freedomcast on September 04, 2003 at 11:08 AM

• Yes, tell it like it is
  Sue, you rock!
  You spoke what MANY American developers are saying.
  Shut down all H1-B, L-1A, send them back, put our American software developers back to work!
  When money leaves this country, it weakens us all.

  Posted by: n5eyf on September 04, 2003 at 01:14 PM

• Please dont pose an insult.
  Hey, our country is under attack.
  Forgive us if we fight back!
  Or don't forgive us, makes no difference to us.

  Posted by: n5eyf on September 04, 2003 at 01:17 PM

• Refuting some ...
  Soon the shoe will be on the other foot as Indian jobs are outsourced to China!
  Then, you will understand.

  Posted by: n5eyf on September 04, 2003 at 01:19 PM

• Be like thousands of intelectuals over thousands of years
  >
  Oh yeah? What happens when an Indian turns 40? According to info I found on India yahoo groups, he/she gets booted out!
  Great respect my butt.
  Another thing; your vendor is soaking up all the money while you do all the work and rake in less than half of the money.
  

  Posted by: n5eyf on September 04, 2003 at 01:26 PM

• OK. But I think otherwise!
  Sounds to me like Sue hit a nerve - a whole bunch of nerves!
  Hah.
  She is right, and you are in the corner trying to box out of it.
  But guess what, that room is getting smaller.
  Indians are so impressed with their meager knowledge that they overlook what is more important - wisdom.
  Here comes China to take your Indian jobs!

  Posted by: n5eyf on September 04, 2003 at 01:36 PM

• Indians come back...
  Indians in the US please come back.
  We need you guys here.
  We got a nation to rebuild.

  Opportunistically Yours...

  Posted by: smartas on September 05, 2003 at 02:47 AM

• Some corroboration for you
  These folks have some interesting first hand experience: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TechsUnite/message/1140

  Posted by: betsy_ross on September 05, 2003 at 06:31 AM

• Total Bull Crap from such a good writer
  Hmmm... where to begin...

  "Average IQ of American is dull compared to and Indian guy"

  I will compare my IQ to yours, or any other "average" Indian any time you want.

  Is it any surprise we say we have a hard time understanding Indian speakers? That sentence is so poorly written, it's pathetic.

  "Now its our turn, you have to improve your skill sets or just shut up"

  I will compare my skillset, and my ability to learn new IT skills, to yours or any other Indian IT worker any time.

  Fact is very simple: Indian IT workers do not produce better, faster, better quality code than American IT workers. You just produce CHEAPER code. Why? Cost Of Living. Of course, America does not allowed indentured slavery, while India does.
  

  Posted by: drhsqa on September 06, 2003 at 06:32 AM

• What a show!
  Well, I really fail to understand why Sue is making such a big issue out of outsourcing. Sue, when corporate decisions are made in the US, most of the people who are involved in this decision making process are Americans. The decision to outsource or not to outsource a particular job to a foreign country is also made mostly by Americans.
  The point that you were trying to make, that Americans are losing their jobs because they have been invaded by the foreigners doesn't
  really make sense. Americans are losing their jobs to foreigners mainly because they are taking their jobs for granted and they
  continue to believe that they are the best and there is no scope for improvement. Whereas, the foreigners take their work seriously
  because in most cases, they have a lot at stake and they want to make a difference. You pretty much flushed the quality of work of foreign workers down the toilet bowl, but maybe you are not aware that India has the largest number of CMM certified companies in the world. And please, please don't speak so proudly about your English speaking
  abilities. The entire world knows the quality of English that Americans speak and write.

  As someone rightly pointed out in one of the comments on your article, your opinions are extremely hypocritical. It is perfectly fine when
  Americans go and exploit people in other countries, but it becomes a criminal offence when other people go to your country, sweat blood, work endless hours at half the salaries that you draw and as a result, do well in life. Please, Sue, look around you. Educate yourself about what Americans are doing to the rest of the world before you complain about losing your jobs. Work harder, be committed to your job and most
  importantly, be honest, both with others and with yourself. You'll suddenly begin to see the other side of the coin.

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 02:50 AM

• One more thing...
  Sorry, I forgot to mention this in my previous comment. This weblog is titled, "java.net The Source for Java Technology Collaboration". What is Sue Spielman's article doing here? How is it related to Java technology? I mean, you don't really need to possess fabulous IQ levels to understand what kind of posts are called for on this weblog... or do you? Sue Spielman... this is not the place to make social or political statements. If you were looking for some free publicity for you and your company, congratulations, you got it. Happy? In future, please stick to technical issues or save your personal opinions about foreign invaders for some place else, not a java.net forum.

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 03:23 AM

• Age old issue
  Jimothy, don't take this personally, but what I feel is that if you and other Americans like you take greater efforts to continuously improve upon your skills, I am sure no Indian or whosoever will take away your job. But if you prefer to stay content with what you know and believe that the rest of the world will accept you as you are forever, well, you are mistaken. Sooner or later, you will fall behind, either to a foreigner or to a country mate. So the issue here is not that Indians and others are "stealing" your jobs through deceit... the issue here is that they are doing what you can do at half your price and many times, doing it better than you. Don't crib about such issues... concentrate on yourself and work towards keeping your job... don't take things for granted, as you Americans are prone to do most of the time. We Indians work hard through all our hardships and it is our right to look for better opportunities, including working in other countries and improving our lifestyles. We don't expect any sympathy when we go through hardships, so why do Americans expect people to sympathise with them because they are losing jobs?

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 03:50 AM

• Lose of IP value another big cost
  What nonsense! I have been in the IT industry long enough to know that companies never outsource projects to foreign countries without proper contracts and confidentiality agreements. All IP is well protected by most foreign companies who accept projects from bigger firms in the US, Japan, etc. It all depends on how well the firm does a background study of the company they are outsourcing their work to. And for your information, the Intellectual Property laws in India are more comprehensive and strict than most other nations.

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 03:57 AM

• Professional Ethics
  Just out of curiosity, what would you (and Miss Sue) do if this person you were asked to train was well qualified and quite capable, but obviously needs some training because he or she is going to work in a different environment? Just because this person is not American would you quit your job? Wouldn't you train a new-comer who is an American?

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 04:35 AM

• OK. But I think otherwise!
  - "Here comes China to take your Indian jobs!"

  So who's complaining? We Indians are not cribbing about the competition from China. Instead, we are taking the battle to them. We are strong and competent enough to compete with the best in the world. We are confident of our abilities. On the other hand, Ms. Sue comes across as a scared, insecure, outdated and out-performed pseudo-techie, who is on her way out.

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 04:46 AM

• Be like thousands of intelectuals over thousands of years
  well, I am sure you picked that up from some Yahoo group comprising of a bunch of ignorant people who don't even know that Hindu(ism) is a religion and Hindi is a language and not the other way round. As far as booting out is concerned, Americans are famous for the hire and fire policy... look who's talking of booting... :-D

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 04:51 AM

• Lose of IP value another big cost
  And by the way, in India, the Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) of computer software is covered under the Copyright Law. Accordingly, the copyright of computer software is protected under the provisions of Indian Copyright Act 1957. Major changes to Indian Copyright Law were introduced in 1994 and came into effect from 10 May 1995. These changes or amendments made the Indian Copyright law one of the toughest in the world.

  Posted by: indusani on September 09, 2003 at 05:26 AM

• watdapak
  outsourcing, just like any idea, is quite good. the problem you had was a mere "error in execution". that's a part of life.

  in a point of view of a software engineer (of which you say you are), its like having an idea for the best system, but due to some constraints, you end up with a trashy software.

  i think you're getting my point, because you are, as you say, GREAT! F***in' Great!

  i'm what you may consider a "cheap incompetent labor" cause i am an asian and im working in my homeland... i've been a part of numerous outsourced projects, some were good... some sucked! however, i could very confidently say that the quality of our codes are surpassed the expectations of our clients.

  Because we also use our rational minds... We THINK before we do anything!

  What i understand here is that, your insecurites are eating you up...

  are you a NAZI?
  

  Posted by: schmirck on September 11, 2003 at 03:49 AM

• Unavoidable
  Imagine all these evil foreigners and outsourcing are gone, will it save the jobs of American white collar workers? I am afraid not. Why? Supply and Demand. The largest bubble in human history has created tons of faked demand and over investments. In the good days, people jump into this area. Quite some of them are not even competent and yet earned a fat pay check. It is good but it is just not the reality. When hard time comes, of course they got wiped out plus some good people. Sure outsourcing accelated this process and to some extent so did open source movement. But remember software is a service industry. When its customers' bottom line got hurt, of course they are going to cut IT spendings. Don't blame your problem on others. This is not a socialist country, is it?

  Posted by: bshu on September 11, 2003 at 07:35 AM

• Dont give generalized reasons for your problem
  "Issuing of foreign worker visas in the high-tech industry has to stop "

  I really don't know whether Ms.Sue really know what hardships a H1 holder is going thro in this country, if we loose our job and if we can't find an other job in 180 days, we are supposed to leave this country. And many of the Employers don't prefer H1's they need GC's or citizens. You think that the people who are surviving here with so many restrictions are still incompetent? Companies needs talented people coz they need to run their show...thats the reason we INDIANS are still here, if we are not competitive you will not have the pain to mail senator, we all would have packed long before.
  And we are not a overhead for this country and this country is not doing any favour by keeping us here, we also invest in stocks, buy house..., pay our taxes and you really should know the fact that the social security we pay here for our 6yrs stay in this country is not OURS, once we leave this country its all YOURS. We enjoy the benefits that this country provides and the country also enjoys, its give and take policy. You can't say that H1B's are not technically sound and still the American companies prefer them instead of their own high qualified people, you think they are crazy?? Please find some other REAL reason to stop issuing VISA's instead of giving this absurd reason...I can understand your feelings for your country people, I have got no hard feelings for that, but the reason you give hurts so many people. You should understand that since you live in a civilized country.

  "What I do have a problem with is working with people who are being hired as ‘cheap’ labor who clearly aren’t qualified or and can be very hard to understand to handle the business situation or transaction required. "

  Just bcoz you had some bad exp it doesn't mean that you have to blacklist the entire community of people. If you have problem with customer support, talk to the manager and solve the problem. You think all the MNC top Heads are mad enough to outsource their work outside US without any profit. No company wants to loose their customer base just bcoz they save some dollars on outsourcing their major projects for "CHEAP LABOR". Again, you need to yell at the companies since you feel that they are taking away your bread and butter and not pinpoint on our tech knowledge or our English accent. For your kind information English is not our National language yet we know the language and we just use it as a tool for our self and for our nation development. I think we INDIANS are better in all aspects coz we work hard and that's the reason we are able to compete with others though we come from a poor country, we can land in any part of the world and prove our capabilities, we can adjust ourselves to whichever country we are in, and its the trust and the knowledge we proved in other countries which makes the Companies to do the outsourcing in INDIA.

  Don't create or assume easy reasons for the problems, find the right reason and solution only then you can fix the problem, easy fix will solve the temp problem but then be prepared for a permanent problem. Its simple law of nature.

  Posted by: jlakshmi_n on September 11, 2003 at 01:52 PM

• Telling it like it is
  hey sue, betsy.etc.etc. & Co

  Nice that u guys r feelin the heat on the butts. ooopsss, american imperialism in another form,, yeah,, so u wanna have ur job and ur wealth... good.. but how do u folks feel about the american expoitation of the oil in the middle east... if u say u deserve the jobs of ur land(which makes sense too)... why do u guys hold all the oil wells in the gulf... ain't it belong to people of that land.... hahahahahaha... what paranoids all u guys are. Like how ur Bush, Rumsfeld and Co wanted to invade countries saying that they possessed unwanted weapons, forgetting that the US of A has the most deadliest of all of them.

  I purposely spoke of things other than IT in my opening para, U know yyyy??? To demonstrate that Sue and many others that their logic of America to Americans is not valid unless they think Iraq is for Iraqis, Kuwait for Kuwaitis, just to mention 2 recent examples of invasion.

  Am a Marketing guy selling IT services to the US market. I have come across various peculiar characters who were not just sweating in their asses thinking of offshoring, but bleeding. Comon pals, thats not the way the brave American reacts. Why don u guyz understand that the laws of economics takes over markets, above anything else? May be nuts like Sue either don't know business&economics or comfortably forget them. Liberalization is just gearing up and I don't know how these idiots will react when it is in top gear.

  Jack Welch once told, a combination of Russian engineering and Indian software is the ideal thing to happen to any business. I am great admirer of the great man and am sure Americans respect him too. He had the vision to predict the future and thats why he became what he is now. Clowns like Sue will never appreciate such things and will continue to shit all over the place making the place nasty for themselves and others.

  Posted by: kannan_rk on September 12, 2003 at 04:21 AM

• Sue for president!
  I concur with steve, Sue can succeed Bush and continue to follow imperialistic measure which will continue to worsen the image of the US of A in the international community and ultimately lead to the loss of the super power status that is temporarily available now... hahahahahahahaha..... How patriotic of you Steve..... God save America....

  Posted by: kannan_rk on September 12, 2003 at 04:41 AM

• Sue for president!
  hey u r juzz right. she is the ideal candidate to succeed Bush, to continue the imperialistic adventures.... and finally spoil the country.....

  Posted by: kannan_rk on September 12, 2003 at 05:13 AM

• Dont give generalized reasons for your problem
  "Issuing of foreign worker visas in the high-tech industry has to stop "

  I really don't know whether Ms.Sue really know what hardships a H1 holder is going thro in this country, if we loose our job

  and if we can't find an other job in 180 days, we are supposed to leave this country. And many of the Employers don't prefer

  H1's they need GC's or citizens. You think that the people who are surviving here with so many restrictions are still incompetent?

  Companies needs talented people coz they need to run their show...thats the reason we INDIANS are still here, if we are not

  competitive you will not have the pain to mail senator, we all would have packed long before.
  And we are not a overhead for this country and this country is not doing any favour by keeping us here, we also invest in stocks,

  buy house..., pay our taxes and you really should know the fact that the social security we pay here for our 6yrs stay in this

  country is not OURS, once we leave this country its all YOURS. We enjoy the benefits that this country provides and the

  country also enjoys, its give and take policy. You can't say that H1B's are not technically sound and still the American

  companies prefer them instead of their own high qualified people, you think they are crazy?? Please find some other REAL

  reason to stop issuing VISA's instead of giving this absurd reason...I can understand your feelings for your country people, I

  have got no hard feelings for that, but the reason you give hurts so many people. You should understand that since you live in a

  civilized country.

  "What I do have a problem with is working with people who are being hired as ‘cheap’ labor who clearly aren’t qualified or and

  can be very hard to understand to handle the business situation or transaction required. While many of us in the industry feel like

  we are being dragged through the wringer and have no choice when dealing with the whole offshore situation"

  Just bcoz you had some bad exp it doesn't mean that you have to blacklist the entire community of people. If you have problem

  with customer support, talk to the manager and solve the problem. You think all the MNC top Heads are mad enough to

  outsource their work outside US without any profit. No compa