Daniel Brookshier's Blog

I want my 5.0 - A Mac user's lament

I am an Apple-based Java developer. I love my Apples (17 inch powerbook and a Dual G5) and the really love the way that Java performs. But where is Java 1.5 when you need it?

Versions of Java 5.0 are released for Linux, Solaris, and MS. When will Apple release 5.0? Not really sure, but the rumors are that the sometime next year when Apple releases their next release of OS X. That's a long wait for someone that needs to be building products with the latest and greatest.

One of the fastest growing customer segments for Apples are Java developers. You can see them all over the place - even at Sun. So, where is all the Apple love at Apple? If they want to sell more machines, why not get a preview out the door ASAP?

Is it resources? If it is, Apple needs to shift gears and get over the fact that Java is a growing developer segment. There are a lot of Java developers out there. We need to get together and let Apple know we need Java 5.0 now.

Can nothing be done to get Java 5.0 on my Apple? Let me know what to do or how I can help the cause!

Comments

• There is a JDK 5.0 preview available via the Select or Premier Developer Connection Memberships. Select will cost you $500 after which you'll receive preview CD's of Tiger (Mac OS X next) and be able to download a JDK 5.0 beta for Tiger. However, if anyone from Apple is reading this, $500 for access to a beta JDK 5 doesn't really do your "Apple is the best for Java" argument any good.
  

  Posted by: dancres on October 01, 2004 at 01:49 AM

• This complaint is typical of novice Mac developers. Apple develops its JDK on its own, so you should not demand that its release is in sync with Sun development. Since Java 1.4, Apple increased the base code taken from Sun in order to improve their shipping date. Still, Apple does not develop only a vanilla JVM: it also deals with close integration with Mac OS X, which is added-value. A more valid whining is why does Sun not target Mac OS X! For the "latest and greatest", subscribe to Apple Developer Connection. The Select membership price covers a whole set of seeds, developer support, and product discounts (including hardware). It is much more value for money than Sun's developer memberships of similar price range.

  Posted by: sngraca on October 01, 2004 at 04:48 AM

• I'm not dismayed by this at all. I know that it is under way, and for my purposes there aren't any particular features of 1.5 that blow my doors off. My group develops desktop applications, so we have a while to go before we could comfortably target a 1.5 application anyhow. If I were developing server side components, I would incline to wait for 1.5 rather than bet the farm on it working 100% correctly.

  On the matter of the Apple and Sun relationship, I think the current arrangement works out the best for developers and Mac users in the long run. I wouldn't expect Sun to nail the integration issues as well as Apple. The delay is acceptable and I'm encouraged from what I've heard about the internal pre-release versions.

  Patience, grasshopper.

  Posted by: duanegran on October 01, 2004 at 06:35 AM

• I have to agree with the others here. The ink is still wet on this release. While yes it would be nice to be able to use 1.5 on my Powerbook, but if it was a necessity I would be using the Tiger developer preview.

  While it would be nice, it certainly is not overdue. No company in thier right mind is going to be using 1.5 for a while yet. Sure the developers may want to switch over to it immediately, but every production system is still going to be using an earlier version. For that matter I still have production systems that are running on 1.2.

  While we developer always want the latest and the greatest, Apple works a bit differently. In their world, you have to be a select or premier member of their developer community to play with the latest and the greatest. If it is necessary, $500.00 is a small price to pay.

  Otherwise, I am sure that Tiger will be released (and I suspect with Java 1.5) soon enough and long before it becomes an issue that OS X does not support 1.5.

  Posted by: mzarra on October 01, 2004 at 06:36 AM

• I have to agree with Dan. I went to JavaOne right after OS X 10 was released and Apple's Java Developers said that Apple was committed to mirroring Sun's Releases by one month. So far, this hasn't been the case.

  Apple also said they wanted OS X to be the premiere environment for running Java Desktop applications. I think they have done a good job up to this point. But if Mac users have to upgrade to OS X 10.4 to get Java 1.5, Java developers are going to have to develop for the lowest common denominator, Java 1.4. How does give us our premiere environment?

  I will agree that Java 1.5 is too fresh to use in production, but how am I going to keep up with Java if I can't run the latest version of Java on my machine? Get a PC? I don't think so!

  Posted by: krames on October 01, 2004 at 07:07 AM

• Ah, well, guess it is time to pony up 500 for 5.0. But I do need to answer some of the critics so far. Some have talked about not having a release at the same time as Sun. I really see no excuse. Sun has had the early release plus internal releases since work has started (who knows how long for some features). Yes, there was probably a bug fix likely submitted minutes from post time, but that's incremental. There is no reason in the world for Apple to not have had that knowledge and the capability to integrate. According to the posts, it seems 5 is alive and well as long as you pay you club fees, which seems to prove my point. Is the delay really about the time it takes to get it right? Or perhaps a way to make $500 on a desperate developer that does not want a few hundred thousand developers with a crashing application? The reality is that Apple is hurting developers. Be it by the release schedule or their pocketbooks.Not to the guys that say too soon. Give me a break. What is too soon? You have no measure to base that on. Should I wait for 5.1, 5.1a, what? Simply the JVM I use is the one that works for me. Your mileage may vary, but the only way to know is what is happening in the current release. Want to hear a horror story? Last week a new 1.4.2 release was propagated by the update. What happened? One product I worked with stopped working. Why? Simply, it blew away the strong encryption we were using by replacing one of the JVM files that are meant to be modified for just such a purpose. But my delema: How do I know this is going to happen unless I pay my $500? Before you jump up and say that I should not have used that new release, the fact is that it is not under my control. Apple's auto update replaces the entire release this time around and does not leave the prior one intact. Q.E.D. screwed. Like I said, this hurts developers. Hard to argue that.Well, I'm off to pay my $500.

  Posted by: turbogeek on October 01, 2004 at 07:14 AM

• The 1.4.2 release was known publically by all developers that had signed up for developer access with Apple. Apple releases those point upgrades publically to developers before they are released to the general public via software update.
  I am sure you are signed up as a developer with Sun so you can get early access to point releases, the question is, why weren't you signed up as a developer for Apple?
  That level of developer access is free to anyone who chooses to sign up. Then you get notification of all of the point releases for Java that are coming out. The only thing you don't get for free (at least atm) is access to a 1.5 preview.
  I am not quite sure what Apple could have done better in this situation.

  Posted by: mzarra on October 01, 2004 at 08:11 AM

• Heh... I remember airing complaints way back when Apple was more than a year behind Sun on releasing Java 1.4 for OS X. Still... I have to agree with many others in thinking you really ought to give it some time. Not having a Sun implementation is part of the Mac gig; you should have known about it before diving in (the 1.3 -> 1.4 delays were famous in the community), so deal with it. I won't start my own whining unless we don't have Java 5 six months from now...

  Posted by: javaben on October 01, 2004 at 08:31 AM

• Tiger on Tiger

  You can get Apple's beta of JDK 5 on the developer release of Mac OS X 10.4. (I got it at JavaOne when I bought my new PowerBook.) It's been out a few months, and has stood up to what I've thrown at it. You can still be the first on your block (unless you're on my block).

  Dave

  Posted by: dwalend on October 02, 2004 at 09:53 PM

• Well, to those that said I should pay my $500 for my developer's support, it is not working out so fat. At least it is not as easy as you would think. It appears that the only way to get Java 5.0 is 'only' if you get the latest pre-release of OS X because that is the only place it runs. Unfortunatly although I was a block away from the Apple WWDC I did not have a pass and thus did not get the disk. So, although Java 5 is available if you pay your $500, you needed to attend the WWDC too. I have a support email into the site to see if I can get the WWDC Tiger DVD, but probably will not hear anything until Monday or later. So, if you too are ready to pay your $500, hold your horses because it has not worked for me yet.
  

  Posted by: turbogeek on October 03, 2004 at 07:58 AM

• Select and Premier members of ADC who did not attend WWDC got the Mac OS X Tiger developer preview (including Java 1.5) DVD via post.

  Posted by: sngraca on October 03, 2004 at 04:57 PM

• Well, good news. For my $500, I will be getting the latest Tiger OS X so that I can test the latest Java 5.0 (also known as Tiger). It will be shipped as part of the regular Apple developer package. So, my $500 is not totally wasted.

  On a related note, the Apple developer package supposedly includes hardware discounts. Well, I though you might be interested in what that means. Essentially it is up to about $500 off some of apple's products. Sounds sweet, but the reality is that you only approach $500 for the dual G5 and laptops. Sadly the savings drop off about as fast as the predictable profit margins on the products, so on a low cost iMac G5 it is insignificant. On the other hand, if you are in the market for a dual G5 or a 17 inch powerbook, buy the developer package first and save almost $500 with the developer set thrown in for almost free.

  Posted by: turbogeek on October 04, 2004 at 03:18 PM

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