Simon Phipps's Blog

The Dog that Didn't Bark

I really like the report on Corante about java.net but it raises for me the question of why none of the other sources I respect in the blogging community have even mentioned the launch of blogs and wikis on java.net, let alone come in with a critique (positive or negative). In particular, I've not seen anyone in the blogging A-list that I track with NetNewsWire mention or critique java.net, and the greatest omission of all was the lack of any comment on Slashdot (until June 13). What gives? Is there no interest in what Corante (arguably) calls "the first large scale developer community to incorporate wikis and weblogs"?

[Also posted at Webmink]

Comments

• well....
  There has been a lot "barking" about java.net on http://javablogs.com and on javalobby.com recently

  Posted by: krage on June 19, 2003 at 12:19 PM

• Oh, come on!
  Come on, Simon, it's not like you feel like you have to beg for comment.

  Posted by: epesh on June 19, 2003 at 01:29 PM

• Dammit
  I wasn't going to respond, but I fell for the bait.

  Some Bile Lovin'
  

  Posted by: hani on June 19, 2003 at 02:01 PM

• Bridging Communities
  If you want to enage the larger blogging community, do what you just did. Link to us.

  Otherwise, I think it got lost in the noise of the week it was launched.

  Posted by: rossmay on June 19, 2003 at 02:09 PM

• Oh, come on!
  Really, I'm not begging for comment (I'd've posted last week otherwise), I genuinely would like to understand why having a major vendor initiate an activity like java.net wasn't remarked upon by any of the A-listers. I asked Jeff Bates at Slashdot a little earlier here at F/OSS & he told me there were no contributions on the topic until June 13. So I'm fascinated to know, why didn't the dog bark?

  Posted by: webmink on June 19, 2003 at 06:38 PM

• Bridging Communities
  I did in fact link out to other bloggers from java.net on June 11 and 13, and also posted from my personal blog on June 10, 11 and 13. And JavaOne went virtually without comment among the A-list bloggers and on Slashdot, so I'm not sure about volume being the issue either. But thanks for the feedback.

  Posted by: webmink on June 19, 2003 at 06:45 PM

• Java Has Outgrown Sun
  If posted two stories at the JavaLobby you might wonna check out:

  * Jun/17: Java.Net: How Not To Build A Community 101 @ http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=8098
  * Jun/16: Censorship Kicks In At Sun's Java.Net "Community" @ http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=17&thread=8094

  Posted by: gerald_bauer2 on June 20, 2003 at 07:45 AM

• Hmm. Not Sure About This. Why "Dog"?
  Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the net worth of blogging a function of how much insight or information it brings to the community, rather than any sort of achievement in and of itself? To want recognition merely for entering the blogosphere is akin to wanting a degree merely for matriculating. Slashdot is a community not a dog; it doesn't bark, it just talks to itself as and when the community feels there is something to talk about. All things come to those that wait, Simon.

  Posted by: jgeelan21 on June 21, 2003 at 04:55 AM

• Hmm. Not Sure About This. Why "Dog"?
  Let me be clear, Jeremy: I am /not/ commenting on the recognition from java.net's target community, there is plenty of that, and I agree it's a matter of earning respect over time by being a community player. From the scepticism I've read that will indeed take time and excellence.

  I am simply suggesting it's interesting that the boosters of blogging as a genre (colloquially known as 'the A-List') have been remarkably quiet about a Fortune 500 company investing big bucks to make blogging happen.

  Posted by: webmink on June 21, 2003 at 08:32 PM

• just waiting on the 1.4.2 release
  I think they are just waiting for the 1.4.2 release of the jdk that was announced during the 1st keynote. Anyone know if it is still on track?

  Posted by: amezick on June 23, 2003 at 10:59 AM

• ownership
  Isn't one of the noteworthy aspects of blogging its lack of major corporate sponsorship? That, in some way, it recovers the scrappy independence once promised by the Internet, an independence now perceived to be a thing of the past? If so, blogging sponsored by Sun is not really equivalent to something like Slashdot, and might even be resented.

  (I work for a major corporation myself. I don't have an axe to grind here -- I'm just trying to answer your question.)

  --Chris
  

  Posted by: cdj4real on June 23, 2003 at 02:24 PM

• I think you got the question the wrong way around.
  The launch of java.net was heavily covered within the existing, vibrant and active Java blogging community. For several days, javablogs.com was covered with posts discussing the site, its tools and initiatives.

  The most common tone of those posts were: "Yes, it's a great idea, but we've been doing this for about a year and a half now, we've developed our own community, why hasn't Sun even _attempted_ to recognise and hook up and integrate with the existing community?"

  Perhaps the problem is that people have suspended judgement on Sun's effort for now, because Sun seems to be holding its site separate from, and perhaps even 'above' the existing blogging community. As any student of Cluetrain, or Small Pieces Loosely Joined will tell you, the way to get discussed is to take part in discussion, and the way to get linked is to first make links yourself.

  Posted by: carlfish on June 23, 2003 at 04:16 PM

• I think you got the question the wrong way around.
  Sorry about that. Remind me not to post before I wake up, I totally misunderstood the question. :)

  The A-list have been pretty silent when it comes to Java in general. Very few cool Java things get mentioned. Roller/Freeroller hasn't shown up on the radar. Java blogging has been a great example of the kind of spontaneous community that the medium can foster, but it's never really rated a mention in the greater world. I've never quite understood it myself either.

  I think it's just one of those weird blind-spots that people sometimes have: "Java is corporate and boring, hence not worth discussing." Having Java do something interesting would cause too much cognitive dissonance. :)

  Posted by: carlfish on June 23, 2003 at 04:38 PM

• I think you got the question the wrong way around.
  Well, as I have repeatedly said in my notes below, I was actually asking a completely different question, about why folk /outside/ the Java community who boost blogging as a medium hadn't commented.

  But the question you ask is interesting. Personally I went straight to javablogs and registered by RSS feed there, although I have now disabled it again as the 'Today' RSS feed has been registered too and I was embarrassed to see my posting appearing three times! I am fully aware of the need to link to my sources. And I know that in fact the folk that started java.net spent time tracking down Java community voices to join in (you'll see more soon I hope). So it's not quite as black as you're painting it.

  There seem to be two ends to this issue though. At one end there's hurt voiced by the creators and users of various tools that theirs wasn't used for java.net (which does, after all, rely on key open source companies O'Reilly and CollabNet to make the site happen - it wasn't built in-house) and suspicion from the voices for whom Sun can do no right. On the other end, although the idea was discussed well before JavaOne the implementation was somewhat last-minute with contracts being signed the week before JavaOne, and all the soothing behaviour that would have helped was pushed to the margins or obstructed by being unable to contact people in time.

  So I'd say there's no conspiracy (at least if there is I've been left out of it :-), just human limitation, and I'd be very pleased to see more cross-fertilisation.

  Posted by: webmink on June 23, 2003 at 04:50 PM

• I think you got the question the wrong way around.
  ... & I have been working on that reply for ages so apologies for not reading your apology :-)

  Posted by: webmink on June 23, 2003 at 04:54 PM

• I think you got the question the wrong way around.
  I'm concerned with the limit on the "free speech" clause. Speech judged as "incompatible" is to be limited. I'm also concerned whether if java.net becomes a corner piece sun will use its power to turn off disagreeable projects. For instance Hibernate competes with two Sun standards: EJB:CMP and JDO. If Hibernate wants to come here and starts rocking the boat, will Sun kick them off? And if java.net becomes a cornerstone, will Sun be given the equivilent power of google. (If google doesn't index you, you don't exist). I'd like to see the "compatibility" clause expanded. Lets say JBoss wanted to come here, would they be welcome? The trouble with java.net is Sun has shown willingness to use communities that (for instance the BeJUG) it controls as a control on open source. I've blogged on all of these concerns. (Though I'm most decidedly in the Java community). Outside of the Java community no one cares frankly. Because Sun is among the latter folks to get on the blogging boat you miss the "early adopter" hype.

  Posted by: acoliver on July 01, 2003 at 06:32 PM

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