Simon Phipps's Blog

Sun has an Open Source Info Site

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• views
  Its not commments towards hard working Sun softwaare engineers..

  But often Sun' s PR machine takes pot shots at open sourec projects rather than compare features of Sun's products against those from Opensource..

  Not to mention saying jcp is better when many within Sun know that open source contributed to jcp went through open source dev process first..and thus the jcp and open source process are not independent of each other when discussing java innovations that come out of jcp..

  Posted by: shareme on July 01, 2003 at 05:02 PM

• You can't have it both ways.
  Sun needs to make up its mind Simon. You can't wear both a white hat and a black hat. http://linuxintegrators.com/hl30/blog/technology/?permalink=Simon%2C+you+can%27t+have+it+both+ways.html
  

  Posted by: acoliver on July 01, 2003 at 05:22 PM

• You can't have it both ways.
  What does that mean exactly? IBM wears both hats, shipping both Linux and AIX (for example). Microsoft produces Rotor as well as .NET among other things. How is Sun's behaviour so bad it deserves special comment? Being a large corporation, with history, precludes neat, easy answers.

  Posted by: webmink on July 01, 2003 at 05:38 PM

• You can't have it both ways.
  IBM isn't giving statements in the press regarding the invalidity and inviabilty of open source especially at their highest levels. Rotor is NOT open source (just read the license). Sun continues to speak out of both sides of its mouth claiming to be an open source friendly while making statements in the press which indicate the contrary. You hear outright fallacies (we made our JSRs all 2.5 level and support JSRs being under open source -- so long as you pretend JSR-168 doesn't exist). You see Sun using its muscle to exclude an open source project from a Java User Group event (and upsetting a board member of the JUG such that he resigned!). You'll excuse me if I don't feel like linking all of this in this comment, I've fully documented many incidents in my blog if you're interested. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft is not a friend of open source, but they don't even pretend to be. If you really want a full indictment I can produce, but I suspect this blog will have a decidedly PR taste to it and so I fear that it would probably fall on deaf ears.

  Posted by: acoliver on July 01, 2003 at 06:12 PM

• No silver bullet
  But then Sun's not a monoculture. Just like in any community, people have varying views. And this is not a single issue area; Sun has been engaged in community-based products since it was formed so you can take a snapshot of any point in the last 20 years and get a different average view. And the marketplace changes over time; Java was a brave, leading-edge experiment in openness in 1995 when I first met it, and in many ways still is, but has grown up into a changed world. And the personalities remain; some of Sun's leaders have been involved in these issues for a very very long time and understand the real issues with personal clarity. And then, finally, reporters have been known to represent these complex issues unhelpfully...

  None of this is to say there aren't real issues. Some of them, indeed, are caused by people who seem to have missed the Cluetrain (naming no names). Some of them are the result of business issues between Sun and others which it's hard to discuss publicly. Some (quite a lot, IMO) are because of best efforts made at one time proving to have bugs later or proving to behave differently in changed circumstances (this is how the JCP has evolved). And some are downright personality issues.

  I have read plenty you (and Fred) have said and I understand and hear your hurt. Trust me, I am working on the issues you highlight along with others like Danese (hey, why is there a java.net site? a sunsource.net site?). But the issues are mostly way too hard to solve by pressing a button. Your constructive input is very welcome as we work it all through.

  By the way, no PR bunnies were harmed or even involved in the production of this web site.

  Posted by: webmink on July 01, 2003 at 06:59 PM

• If you want to adjust your ego - Read this
  Hi,

  just to let you know if you want to adjust your ego may I invite you to check out the ongoing JavaLobby discussion titled "Let's Create An Open-Source Java F.A.Q." @ http://www.javalobby.org/thread.jsp?forum=61&thread=8284

  - Gerald

  Posted by: gerald_bauer2 on July 01, 2003 at 09:44 PM

• You're a PR bunny
  > By the way, no PR bunnies were harmed in the
  > production of this web site.

  Great that you're still alive and kicking.

  Posted by: gerald_bauer2 on July 01, 2003 at 09:52 PM

• No silver bullet
  Well lets do it. What about JSR-168. Lets open that up and release all contributers from NDAs. IBM is game. Shine some sunshine into the process for JSR-168. Let the world see in. If its all on the up and up and everyone wants to play nice, you've nothing to loose. Why wait? What issues are there, lets start today! http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TalkPlutoProposal

  Posted by: acoliver on July 02, 2003 at 06:20 AM

• No silver bullet
  OK, I'm game. As you know I'm not involved in JSR168 (for the benefit of other readers, the portlet spec) so there's "no silver bullet" but if you send me e-mail (simon.phipps@sun.com) I'll go digging for you - let's take it there for now.

  Posted by: webmink on July 02, 2003 at 07:11 AM

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