Scott Violet's Blog

On Look and Feels

Yes, who does? Well, I suspect many folks actually don't care! That's right, I'm questioning whether the system look and feels matter as much as we've been lead to believe. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Here's the set of apps I run day in and day out on my Windows box: Firefox, Thunderbird, NetBeans, Gaim, Total Commander, Yahoo! Widgets and Light Room. What's interesting about this set of apps is that I suspect Total Commander is the only one that directly uses the system toolkit. That's just a suspicion though, I don't confidently know what Total Commander is running, all I can say about Total Commander is that it doesn't look very much like an XP app. Total Commander is a better fit for DOS;) I use Total Commander as it extremely customizable and you can do everything from the keyboard; a power users dream for file management. That it isn't the prettiest app doesn't bother me (well, ok, if given the choice between two functionally equivalent versions of the app, I'll choose the prettier).

Adobe's Light Room is a wonderful app, but it looks nothing like the rest of the desktop. Does that bother me? No! I use Light Room for a particular task, and that it doesn't look much like the desktop in no way bothers me.

We also have a Mac at home. Surely the Mac must be a paragon of consistency, right? Well, take a look at any of Apple's pro-apps, such as Aperture or Final Cut Pro. These apps definitely have an Apple'ish look to them, but they don't have the exact same look as the rest of the apps on the desktop.

And lets not forget the web apps that are out there. Gmail is great for occasional email, but it too doesn't look anything like a desktop app. The same is true of most AJAX and Flash apps.

So, what gives? Does the system look and feel matter? Could it be that the cries we were hearing were primarily the result of our dated Java look and feel? And the knee jerk reaction from the community was to demand the system look and feel? I have to wonder that if we had kept the Java look and feel modern and fresh (not Ocean), would we have heard such a demand for the system look and feel?

I suppose you could take my argument one step further, that the look of the app doesn't really matter that much to the end user. What does matter is whether they are able to complete the task they need to get done with it in a timely manner. Anything on top of that is just icing.

While I'm not sold on apps needing to look consistent on the desktop, having a consistent feel, in terms of keyboard accessibility, is critical to me. Can you imagine not being able to use control-c (on windows) for copy? Or what about something other than alt-F4 for closing windows. That would drive me batty in a heart beat.

Now for the controversial (yes, it gets better). Is it time we take some of the energy we've been putting in the system look and feels and channel it into a stellar cross platform look and feel? Even if it came at the expense of fixing more off by one pixel problems in the system look and feels for a release?

Please don't take this train of thought as an indication that we're decommitting from the system look and feels. That couldn't be further from the truth; the same number of folks continue to fix bugs for both XP and GTK as has for the last release (well, except for occasional help from an unlikely source)! I'm posting this blog to stir up a discussion on the merits of the system look and feels as compared to cross platform look and feels.

    -Scott

Comments

• Well, I don't know about Final Cut Pro, but LightRoom and Aperture are basically designed for full-screen use, so no wonder if their non-standard l&f is not an issue.

  I'd say that the answer to your question is twofold:

  For Mac OS X users, consistency with the system l&f is usually important. Even though it must be pointed out that Apple lately has not been consistent - e.g. the latest iTunes is no more Aqua, but maybe it's just a transition to a new l&f in Leopard.
  For Windows and Linux I'd say it would be more important to have a cross-platform, good-looking l&f (the default one is terrible). But I don't know what will happen with Vista.

  Posted by: fabriziogiudici on January 25, 2007 at 03:26 PM

• You make like this article then. Some nice quotes from Romain.

  
  I think that the reason many users tolerate (or even actively embrace) so many non-system UIs is that they look pleasing/appealing/attractive. The Metal/Ocean doesn't really bother me too much, but I'll never delcare it pleasing to the eye. To me, Metal/Ocean is the equivalent to turning up to a job interview in jeans and a t-shirt. You may be perfect for the job, but that first impression will probably nail you regardless.

  Posted by: arooaroo on January 25, 2007 at 03:27 PM

• I think that if you provide a system look and feel it should be as perfect as possible. In my ubuntu system I don't use the GTK look and feel (not even in java6) because it does not feel/look like real gnome apps..

  In fact, any other look and feel that looks/feels 'modern' should do.

  It would also be nice to be able to create non-rectangular frames/components.

  Posted by: francisdb on January 25, 2007 at 03:34 PM

• Actually, there is a similar discussion going on among Mac OS X developers. More and more Mac OS X apps, even Apple's, don't follow the HIG (Human Interface Guidelines.) Strictly, they don't have a native look and feel. In fact, there are so many apps likes this that several developers create the IndieHIG to create new guidelines based upon what's been created "in the wild."

  Many long-time Mac OS X developers are getting grumpy at those new kinds of apps which don't follow the old standards. Yet they look good and they are easy to use (for instance, Disco.)

  Any application that looks good and that's easy to use will not be rejected by the users. And I only heard developers complain about non-native looks. Maybe because they don't like Metal/Ocean and they know designing good graphics is hard. The most important thing is, like Scott said, to have a consistent and native feel (that means text fields should have a popup menu with copy/cut/paste/select all in metal/ocean ;-)

  Posted by: gfx on January 25, 2007 at 03:38 PM

• I'm all for a better cross platform look and feel. Or, at least, a new alternative bundled with the JDK. At my company they require we use the same look and feel on Solaris and Windows because they don't want to test everything twice. I have tried a number of LAFs but none of are as polished as I'd like them to be. Substance was very close, but some of our custom renderers didn't function correctly with it.

  Posted by: aberrant on January 25, 2007 at 03:42 PM

• I dun make any Java Desktop that sell money, but in my company GUI designer are looking for beautiful outlook rather that "system outlook".

  The same case for Flash and AJAX. In a interview, Adobe said they won't make any System LAF for their Flex bcuz they think System LAF is not needed. Also, I never see a AJAX/DHTML/CSS library that aimed to provide System LAF for the developer.

  The only market for System LAF is for someone who want to make some VB-like application or simple application that the developer dun hvae to care about the outlook.

  Posted by: fcmmok on January 25, 2007 at 03:55 PM

• To be honest, I never cared much for pixel-perfect fidelity. What bothered me the most in the past was the fact that the GUI just behaved slightly different. Especially things like menus not opening and closing like their native counterparts always drove me mad.

  I think a really slick cross-platform LAF would be worth considering.

  Posted by: quintesse on January 25, 2007 at 03:57 PM

• I always rather liked Metal ;-)

  Posted by: scolebourne on January 25, 2007 at 03:58 PM

• That's the problem with "native look and feels." If you don't get them a 100% correct, it's a failure.

  Posted by: gfx on January 25, 2007 at 04:38 PM

• aberrant - i'd be very interested to hear about the issues you had with custom renderers under Substance. Feel free to drop me a mail at kirillcool [@at@] yahoo [.dot.] com or write a message in the project forums (request an Observer role first).
  Thanks, Kirill

  Posted by: kirillcool on January 25, 2007 at 04:59 PM

• I think, that the problem is more with "feel" rather than with "look".

  The worst part of Swing "feel" is it's painful file chooser dialog.
  It neither look, nor feel like native GTK file chooser. On Unix you really
  nead at least basic path completion functionality, which is completely absent in Swing's file chooser.

  Posted by: aleksey_kondratenko on January 25, 2007 at 10:06 PM

• In my opinion, Apple's pro applications don't sell by their user interface. I would even say that the Final Cut Studio Pro user interface looks alien on Mac OS X. It does not honor some of the basic principles of Aqua, like support for active and inactive states of components.

  If you take a look at Apple's iLife and iWork suites, you'll notice, although there is some diversity in their design, all of them share the same style and basic principles of the platform they are running on.

  I think it is very hard to create a cross platform look and feel that looks good on Windows, Linux and Mac OS X at the same time, because of differences in overall style and basic principles. I am specifically worried about getting a new cross-plattform look in Java that looks good everywhere else but feels alien on Mac OS X.

  Please, if you are going to create a new look and feel for Swing, take this as a chance to do more changes under the hood of Swing, so that it can keep up with recent and future development in the user interface designs of the underlying platforms. Such as resolution independent layouts (please no integer based DLU's as they don't seamlessly scale due to rounding errors), support for more component states (appearance of components on active/inactive windows, selection appearance of focuses/unfocused components, ...), translucent and non-rectangular components and windows, ...

  Posted by: wrandelshofer on January 25, 2007 at 11:03 PM

• You're right, there is no such thing as a [single] System L&F... Perhaps Swing needs a collection of them, not limited to:

  Office 2003 style
  Office 2007 style
  Vista/IE7 style (no menus, big buttons)
  Traditional Mac Aqua style
  Mac "pro apps" style
  Mac iPhoto style (with black translucent modeless dialogs)
  Good cross platform style

  I missed out linux ones because i'm not really familiar with them. My linux boxes all run headless :-)

  The big problem with L&Fs though is the feel.. The UI toolkit in Swing shouldn't be low level and deal with menus and buttons, but with higher level concepts like commands and options - and the L&F represents these as buttons or menus or gestures in a particular way.

  Eg, an office 2003 L&F would have millions of tiny buttons and look rubbish, but the 2007 one or the mac iphoto one would do something a bit more subtle.

  Posted by: goron on January 25, 2007 at 11:18 PM

• goron:give JIDE a look for Office and Eclipse look-and-feel effects as well as a lot of custom components (there are free alternatives, but JIDE is affordable, well-supported, and well-featured). I've used it to build form-based applications that fit very well into the desktop, as well as plain old Swing applications using Java SE 5 and 6 that fit in well with the desktop. You can gain greater fidelity still by paying attention to deployment issues, such creating a native launcher. I also strongly recommended using things like JGoodies Forms for it's excellent ButtonBar and Borders that help get placement and spacing right (although GroupLayout and MigLayout are good alternatives).
  - Chris

  Posted by: chris_e_brown on January 26, 2007 at 01:07 AM

• scott:I suspect the "look" part of this ongoing debate is related to parts of the UI, such as individual dialog boxes, toolbars, and stuff, as most applications (apart from form entry) usually aim to solve particular problems and as such their UI will have a large zone of their UI which is heavily-customised and therefore unlikely to completely resemble anything else. I agree in any case that the feel is more important than the look for fidelity, and that's where I think progress can be made. For example, it would be nice to have an extensive list of basic action templates (cut, copy, and paste) that can be queried to obtain platform-specific keyboard shortcuts, and help in complying with human interface guidelines (in which menu should I place which action, in which order, etc...).
  - Chris

  Posted by: chris_e_brown on January 26, 2007 at 01:14 AM

• 
  It's important to get the feel good. It's easier for users if all applications GUI's behave the same. The look as such is not as important (certainly not whether it's pixel precise or not).

  
  However, when your application is used by a novice user or used infrequently it is crucial that the user is not distracted by the differences in the GUI, compared to the system l&f.

  
  Professional applications don't need this consistency, user will spend many hours a day with them anyway and will become familiar with the l&f far more quickly.
  

  Posted by: jochenderwae on January 26, 2007 at 01:21 AM

• "I'm questioning whether the system look and feels matter as much as we've been lead to believe."

  
  -How can you regard the single most important issue of swing as unimportant!!!!! This is very discouraging coming from you, Scott.

  -If you are going to argue the point that other applications use their own look and feels you could at least admit that they use the system file chooser not the poorly-performing feature-missing JFileChooser. Other applications which use their own look and feel at least look good. If you don't have the will and resources to do a system look and feel which is close enough to native, give us a look and feel that looks as good as, or bettern than the native (incl. vista, Max OS X) INCLUDING the filechooser! Metal L&F JFileChooser makes my users rip their hair out.

  -I can't believe you regard this as unimportant. As a swing application developer I find is disrespectful, almost insulting. I don't mean to rant, but you really touched a raw nerve.
  

  Posted by: javaveteran on January 26, 2007 at 03:51 AM

• Having a consistant system look and feel is critical for my scenario, we have a mixed development team (some TCL/Tk, .Net, Java and C/C++) so we end up with a a variety of applications that do all interact. I would love to use some of the more non standard look and feels, but I need my Java apps to fit in with everything else.

  So, for me the system look and feel is not most important - sure a shiny new platform look and feel (Metal is so 90s) would be nice, but I can't help feeling that if people want a non-system look there are already plenty of other look and feels out there.

  Rob

  Posted by: rasto1968 on January 26, 2007 at 05:39 AM

• Well, I'm not going to get quite as angry as the last guy, but while there is a place for custom L&Fs, no, I dont think we should move our attention away from native L&F. The work that went in improving the XP L&F in 6 was very much appreciated, because (i believe) that they will notice litte differences, and that it can be distracting. The menus are a big one for me. And every time i click a button now i cant help but notice the darn focus rect that's there now, yeah firefox does it too, yeah its important for usability, but its just not "right". Missing animations on combobox dropdowns are another example.

  To users, these appear to be "defects" which reflect poorly on the quality of the application. But I know you understand this, and im glad work on the platform L&Fs will continue, I just hope that since Josh has now left the team, someone else will take over the role of blogging on the fixes going in to the weekly builds, with screenshots!

  So you suggest we invest effort in a stellar cross-platform look and feel. Sure! I'd love one. It would be great to show off the power of Swing with something totally new that trumps even Vista and OS X, maybe even making use of Campbell's 3D work. Imagine a JDesktop pane with OS X style window animations or Vista-like window flipping. I'm sure someone cleverer than me could pull it off (im looking at you romain...)

  BUT, first of all, I dont think it should be included in the core. Platform dependant stuff should be yes, because we dont want to ship platform dependant apps, but if it's truly cross-platform, then make it an optional 3rd party thing, just as Substance is.

  Second, a look & feel would be a huge effort, I'd rather see the Swing team focus on new widgets and dialogs. Jide is fantastic, there's alot in there I really wish were in the core, like the powerful Office style toolbars. To me a look and feel just feels like something that should be left to third parties, hopefully those with strong design backgrounds. I dont think there's a need for "one cross platform L&F to rule them all". In other words, focus on allowing us to do things we currently cant do!

  Posted by: benloud on January 26, 2007 at 05:56 AM

• I've written an application which is a front-end to an excellent package management tool for the Arch Linux OS. This project, called Jacman, has been going on for a couple of years, and wasn't received terribly well because of Linux users' general hostility towards non-OSS software (although my software was, the Java platform wasn't at the time.)

  Anyway, the way I turned it around was to start to dazzle them a bit with the presentation - and before long, people started using. Admittedly, the only reason I managed to make it look decent was by borrowing ideas straight from the likes of Romain and Lipsky. The final piece of the puzzle was using Substance 3, which looks great and has nice eye-candy too. It's gone down a treat. I don't think anyway would use it if I stuck with Metal. You'd think GTK LAF is an obvious choice for a Linux app, but as people have said, unless it's 100%, then users are dissatisfied.

  Unfortunately we're stuck with Metal/Ocean because of backwards computability. I was looking forward to the new Synth theme but that didn't materialise - which was a shame. I agree with others that an impressive x-platform LAF bundled with the JRE would be a very welcome addition for desktop users.

  Posted by: arooaroo on January 26, 2007 at 07:02 AM

• arooaroo : "I think that the reason many users tolerate (or even actively embrace) so many non-system UIs is that they look pleasing/appealing/attractive. "

  I agree with arooaroo. The Plastic Look and Feels meet my needs.

  My users have never complained about not being exactly the same as the native L&F: they're not that sophisticated. The L&F just has to be close. And I agree that the feel is more important than the look.

  Posted by: neilweber on January 26, 2007 at 09:31 AM

• Where do you go if you insist that sweating over System L&Fs is not worth it, and the Cross Platform L&F looks dreadfully unsuitable for any quality application?

  Posted by: sumitkishore on January 26, 2007 at 10:02 AM

• 
  Final users don't mind about system look and feel.

  They don't even know what that is. And I say that from experience doing usability tests. They just don't mind.

  Go take a look at "Graphical User Interface Design and Evaluation" by D.Redmond-Pyle and A. Moore. You'll see that you measure usability by measuring (among others) attitude:

  Do people experience using the system as tiring and frustrating, or do they find it rewarding to use, and feel a sense of satisfaction?

  
  I don't feel a sense of satisfaction using the Swing's GTK Look and Feel. I feel it tiring and frustrating.

  I don't feel a sense of satisfaction using the Windows Look and Feel. Mainly because I don't use Windows that much (yes, I know that's my fault).

  I don't feel a sense of satisfaction using the Metal Look and Feel either. Nor the Ocean Look and Feel.

  I do feel a sense of satisfaction using the JGoodies Looks Look and Feel, though. And I feel that sense of satisfaction using it on Windows and Linux. Because it's a cool Look and Feel.

  So, to summarize (and sorry for this long post): developers want to make their users feel satisfaction using Swing applications.. That's the trend nowadays:

  
  That's why people spend buliding painters for SwingX
  That's why people spend time building custom look and feels
  That's why people spend time building stuff like Aerith

  
  So instead of worrying about those little-tiny-pixels nobody sees in a system look and feel that nobody uses, why not expend some more time doing a modern Look and Feel? One that does not frustrate users? One that allows developers make users feel that satisfaction?

  Cheers,
  Antonio

  
  

  Posted by: vieiro on January 26, 2007 at 10:56 AM

• javaveteran,

  -How can you regard the single most important issue of swing as unimportant!!!!! This is very discouraging coming from you, Scott.

  Glad to hear you feel passionate about this! That's what I was looking for!

  I said this at the end of the blog, and I really mean it, system look and feels are and continue to be extremely important. We are focusing a lot of resources on making them pixel perfect! That said, the point of this blog is to make the case for whether the system look and feel is really that important, and gather input from the community. Thanks to all that have chimed in!

  Not suprisingly the responses to this blog ranges wildly. My quick reaction is the majority of folks care more about the feel, and less so about the look, assuming it looks good. A handful of folks continue to be interested in the system look and feel, but that doesn't seem to be the majoriy.

  But let me say this one more time: we continue to focus on the system look and feels!

  Synth: Yes, yes YES! Thankfully I can finally say we have someone working on a synth look, and it's turning out be quite good. Look for an announcement soon (fingers crossed!).

      -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 26, 2007 at 01:38 PM

• I feel the need to mention that for both Firefox and Trillian, I replaced the original looks with skins that didn't hurt my eyes...I don't mean they were bad, I mean they really hurt my eyes after looking at them over an 8 hour day.In the same vein, if my end users don't like my custom look and feel, if it hurts their eyes, I'd like them to be able to default my application to the native OS's look and feel.I have to believe a lot of time and thought went into the look and feel of operating systems and how a great many different individuals view them differently, whereas I don't consider color-blind users or those that are sensitive to certain colors...I just make a skin that I think looks cool.

  Posted by: dblair on January 26, 2007 at 01:52 PM

• Real users (not developers) shun ugly apps, regardless of the functionality, if it aint pretty then its just not fun to use, so yes L&F is critical to help with the turning tide of AJAX to Swing.

  Might be nice to build on top of JGoodies (which I use as my preferred L&F) but if you start from scratch can you deliver by October 31 (and important day for Swing).

  Either way I care not if it matches the system look though I think it should feel like a native app.

  Posted by: aronsmith on January 26, 2007 at 08:21 PM

• gfx: That's the problem with "native look and feels." If you don't get them a 100% correct, it's a failure.

  I couldn't agree more. Frankly I was disappointed when metal was left behind to work on the system look and feels.

  The file chooser is a perfect example. If you've ever tried JEdit and browsed for a file you'll note that opening a file works great but looks nothing like the windows file browser. The best way to look good is to go your own way and make it work flawlessly. If you try to copy, you'll always be second best.
  

  Posted by: jseltzer on January 26, 2007 at 08:26 PM

• Frankly, if you guys want so much a native file chooser, why don't you use java.awt.FileDialog?!? In most apps, this kind of dialog that are used for calling system resources (file choosing, printing) are 100% native (it doesn't look like native, it IS native), even if the whole app has a different look and feel or uses a cross-platform GUI toolkit (Firefox, OpenOffice, Winamp).

  Well, that is for 'dettached' components. For 'inline' components like textfields and comboboxes, the feel is most important. As Romain said, the lack of a default copy/cut/paste popup menu in textfields makes it 'feel' different (in Windows, at least). But I (and most of the rest of the world, I suppose) couldn't care less if the bottom-right corner its bevel border is one pixel off the native one.

  And Scott, in this new-modern-good-looking LaF, please use (slightly) smaller default fonts. One of the causes for Ocean's screens always look ugly, is because it's default is Dialog,bold,12, while Windows's laf is Tahoma,plain,11 (JLabel). Everything gets larger and clumsier with in.

  Posted by: ronaldtm on January 27, 2007 at 03:00 AM

• From Mozilla's Scott Collins:

  People kept telling us that Mozilla would never be good until we had the native controls, and we knew they were wrong, it is good without native controls, but boy, people really really want their native controls. And they really rewarded us when we gave them native controls. When we gave them things like Firefox, which looks native on the platforms that its on, and Camino, which is native in OS X. They thought it was fantastic.

  From this interview.
  

  Posted by: tompalmer on January 27, 2007 at 07:14 AM

• A couple more thoughts: The file chooser is usually about interaction with the system. As such, a system chooser is almost always a better idea than reimplementing it.
  Any thought for a cross platform LaF that looks unique but still uses system colors? Maybe could be done. Colors jarring across apps can be very ugly. Unless everything's full screen, ...

  Posted by: tompalmer on January 27, 2007 at 07:19 AM

• My users of in house java apps on Windows invariably choose either JGoodies or Skin look and feel with the Aqua skin.

  Besides, I haven't heard anybody who saw Aerith complaining that they missed a system look.

  So as far as I'm concerned asking the question is answering it. Go for the stellar cross platform LAF.
  

  Posted by: jancarel on January 27, 2007 at 07:24 AM

• Personally i love the JGoodies Plastic Look and Feel. It gives Java Swing apps such a professional feel on all platforms.

  Secondly, I see you use Total Commander, but I have to mention that I use Servant Salamander for Windows. It blows Total Commander out of the water and is completely customizable and does everything a file manager should and is LIGHTNING FAST.

  I do not work for Altap but their product is that awesome if any of you Java Developers are stuck using Windows. Check it out here:

  http://www.altap.cz/salam_en/index.html

  Posted by: elefkof on January 27, 2007 at 08:07 AM

• 2 cents: I agree with all the folks here sighting the variations in the oh-so-sensitive-about-ui mac os x arena. Sticking to a totally native look and feel is far less important than having a cool look and feel that users enjoy. At the small company where I work, we develop, install, and support a rather monstrous business application written entirely in java and we support this app on Windows, Mac, and Linux. We have a rather small installed base of about 400 companies. We have been working on the look and feel issue for a while. We realize what we have out there needs work right now. We have played with the JGoodies Plastic look and it is one of the better ones in my opinion. However, at least based on the opinion in the pool of users we are dealing with, its the cool and friendly look and feel that is wanted much more so than a native look and feel.

  Posted by: sunofra on January 27, 2007 at 11:27 AM

• It is important to have certain aspects of the look and feel match the native experience. E.g. the JFileChooser on Win32 in detailed view could not sort properly until Java 6.. that was critically important because users had a pattern of finding files by date in crowded directories. ("I just created that file, now where is it?" ... at the top to bottom of the list, when the sorting was fixed.)

  Other times the actual per-pixel correctness doesn't matter except when it is visually distracting, such as text baselines not lining up or one edit box (e.g. password) being taller than the rest.

  One more thing that made the native look and feel matter was that Java applications carried a certain stigma and the Metal/Ocean look and feel is an in-your-face declaration that the application is done in Java and therefore it must be slow and doesn't work the way I expect it to in terms of "feel"

  It's more important to get the "feel" matching the native experience than it is to get the "look" to match... because changing the feel slows down and frustrates users.

  Posted by: swpalmer on January 27, 2007 at 03:49 PM

• All add that the context menu cut,copy,paste,undo,select all, etc. in edit boxes on Win32 is another example of frustrating users by not matching the feel. It matters... customers complain about these things... frequently.

  Posted by: swpalmer on January 27, 2007 at 03:51 PM

• swpalmer wrote: It's more important to get the "feel" matching the native experience than it is to get the "look" to match... because changing the feel slows down and frustrates users.

  The "feel" differs a lot between plattforms. For a cross-plattform look and feel to be successful on all platforms, it somehow needs to implement all these "feels".

  Posted by: wrandelshofer on January 28, 2007 at 01:44 AM

• System look & feels are important, pixel perfect fidelity is not.

  But that's not my main point, this is.

  My company produces a large cross-platform products that are pure Java, and business critical to our customers. If we used system look and feel we could not possibly manage the support load or the documentation. What makes that possible is the cross-platform look and feel.

  I'll be blunt, the 1.5 ocean is worse that what came before. Our customers think our application looks outdated. Something needs to be done. Sounds like you have the right idea.

  If you need help, you know where we are.

  Posted by: bugfaceuk on January 28, 2007 at 09:05 AM

• 
  Scott

  Thanks for your diplomatic response to my comments!

  I'm all for a fabulous looking crossplatform look and feel, as long as the fileChooser still looks native or better. My problem with using crossplatform L&F is that JFileChooser uses the same icons for different file types, instead of using the shell icons that the user is familiar with. It looks pretty strange to most of our users. Comments like "what is this?" are not uncommon when opening JFileChooser using Metal or JGoodies for the first time.

  Speaking of JFileChooser there are still many open issues:
  http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6468222
  http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5011207
  http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4137653
  and many more:
  http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/search.do?process=1&category=java&bugStatus=open&subcategory=classes_swing&type=bug&keyword=JFileChooser
  

  Posted by: javaveteran on January 29, 2007 at 01:16 AM

• Absolutely agree: It's just not that important.
  A "stellar" cross plattform LAF isn't that important either - there are very slick 34d party LAFs.

  What I really, really would expect from Sun is a decent, modern set of UI components. Hooray, in Java 6 table columns are sortable - yawn.
  How about collapsible panes, a docking framework (the one in Netbeans is really cool), powerfull rearrangeable toolbars, datatips on partially obscured list/tree items, auto-complete dropdowns, etc. pp.

  For all of those there are workarounds, but these should really be in Swing itself.

  Posted by: skelvin on January 29, 2007 at 01:24 AM

• Scott, are there currently plans to make Windows L&F menus identical to native? Currently there are no drop shadows, and sizing of Menu bar is slightly different etc.

  Posted by: javaveteran on January 29, 2007 at 03:22 AM

• I am in favour of the stellar cross-platform Look And Feel. In the past I worked on a huge really cross-platform application and I can assure you that using System Look And Feel sometimes was like shooting in the dark. The Application runs on any environment supporting a JVM. The experience developed pushed me to develop my own Look And Feel that is going to be released soon.

  Posted by: davideraccagni on January 29, 2007 at 09:36 AM

• skelvin: That's the purpose of the SwingLabs/SwingX project, led by a Sun engineer.

  Posted by: gfx on January 29, 2007 at 10:01 AM

• tompalmer,

  Any thought for a cross platform LaF that looks unique but still uses system colors? Maybe could be done. Colors jarring across apps can be very ugly. Unless everything's full screen

  That seems so tricky to do; many looks are purely image based, and on windows you can select from different color schemes. Possible, but very expensive to cover the cases.

      -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 29, 2007 at 10:51 AM

• elefkof,

  Thanks for the tip on Servant Salamander. When I find some free time, I'll give it a try.

     -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 29, 2007 at 10:52 AM

• All,

  After chasing the native file chooser for so long, we've finally decided to give folks the option of using the native file chooser. Work is already under way on this:)

      -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 29, 2007 at 10:55 AM

• javaveteran,

  Scott, are there currently plans to make Windows L&F menus identical to native? Currently there are no drop shadows, and sizing of Menu bar is slightly different etc.

  YES! We've just done a significant amount of work to get menu items/bars to look right on Vista. We still have work to get the menu animation and shadows to work right; we're on it!

     -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 29, 2007 at 10:57 AM

• YES!

  That's awesome news! Can't wait to see it :)

  Posted by: mattnathan on January 29, 2007 at 01:52 PM

• My users refuse to leave Metal; the grey color scheme is pleasing on the eyes. Ocean was never an option; way to bright for constant use. Some are using JTattoo Hifi (polished black look).

  I'm a proponant of a very polished uniform LaF: looks sell.

  An internal GUI styling trail of mine of about 2 years ago (some shadow, neon borders and animation) just got sold, because one of my coworkers was using it at a client's. It's nothing fancy, it just looks good, and it sold.

  Posted by: tbee on January 30, 2007 at 01:27 AM

• Scott,
  Keep in mind that just about everybody that reads and responds here is a developer. Developers are notorious for approaching and using software differently than other people. Developers are, for the most part, process oriented. We want to easily make x happen, then y happen, then z happen. Most other users are result oriented -- they want to see x, create y, find z. To them, having some apps look different than others is very disorienting. Apples pro apps are no exception. People learn to tolerate those differences in some cases where there is a good reason for it being different (Aperature's black theme allows you to focus better on the photographs, for example). But people should not -- and in many cases will not -- tolerate these differences unless there is a very good reason. The demise of Kai's Power Tools was a perfect example of that.

  Posted by: rwcope2 on January 30, 2007 at 10:42 AM

• Kai's Power Tools did not only look different, it completely changed the user interaction with the software. And that was way worse than its different look.

  Posted by: gfx on January 30, 2007 at 02:33 PM

• Hi Scott,

  I also often visit web site that doesn't look like my OS and that doesn't bother me ;-). I also think that Winamp had some much success because it didn't look native.

  You might also have a look at Ant Commander http://www.antcommander.com It's a file manager also very configurable and developed with Java, Ant and Swing. It's free for personal use but if you send me a mail I'll send you a license for free (for contribution to Swing code).

  - Anthony

  Posted by: agoubard on January 30, 2007 at 03:36 PM

• All,
  After chasing the native file chooser for so long, we've finally decided to give folks the option of using the native file chooser. Work is already under way on this:)

  THANK YOU SWING TEAM!!!

  Posted by: javaveteran on January 31, 2007 at 12:21 AM

• rwcope2,

  I do agree end users are different than developers, but I suspect most end users care more about getting something done then how it looks. For example, web apps are extremely popular (gmail, yahoo mail ...) but they don't look and behave like most desktop apps. A some what different example of this is Microsoft Money, it's a desktop app, but in many ways feels closer to a web app.

      -Scott

  Posted by: zixle on January 31, 2007 at 08:59 AM

• Look at Yahoo's new messenger app, built on Windows Presentation Foundation: http://messenger.yahoo.com/windowsvista.php . That's what the future holds, for windows apps, at least. The idea of a standard look and feel will be as relevant as a standard website design.

  Posted by: amtiskaw on February 02, 2007 at 05:30 AM

• Scott et. al.,

  Web mail is an excellent example of what I mean. People use web apps that provide useful functionality, inspite of how they look and feel. I have many clients and friends who used to access web mail accounts in a browser because that was the only way they knew how. Once I set up their standard email client to access their mail accounts, however, they never used the web interface again unless they were away from their computer. Just because they are willing to use it doesn't mean it is good enough.

  Years of Human Interface research have shown that the less the user has to think about the UI, the more productive they will be. If every app looks different, then the user has to think more about how to get something done each time they switch apps.

  In the early 90's, Ray Magliozzi (of Car Talk fame) wrote a great article in an academic engineering journal on car heaters (who knew he had PhD?). In it he pointed out that the perfect interface to the car heater appeared in a '57 Chevy (roughly, I don't remember the exact year). However, because everyone feels they have to distinquish their cars from one another, that simple, useful interface was never used again. As a result, we have distinctive looking cars that we have to sit and stare at until we figure out how to turn on the stupid heater.

  So UI standards are more than just icing. For example, the point of having the default button look the same and appear in the same location in each app is that you don't have to stop and look for it it each time you want to use it. The simple fact that people can and will use something that isn't as good is not a reason to give them something that isn't as good.

  Just to be clear, I am not saying that the alternate L&F's for Swing out there are not good. I'm sure they have their place, just as Aperture's UI does. I am saying that most apps should use the platform L&F unless there is a very compelling reason not to, and therefore more work should go into developing those L&F's than the alternatives.

  Posted by: rwcope2 on February 02, 2007 at 12:23 PM

• I don't think there is a single answer to your question because you have to segment your users, applications and work patterns. So whatever L&F means to you, the answer is probably that it is needed to fulfill some segments need but not all. Hence, it is a must have feature that you can customize and have a system L&F for each system or be close to it. If the largest segment are those those users who use MSOffice most of the time and want something familiar (but not completely perfect) then the system L&F becomes more important. For Developers, the customization feature and something that is not so "systemy" is more important. It is the entrance fee to play in the desktop market.

  Posted by: aappddeevv12 on February 05, 2007 at 07:07 AM

• I'm relieved to hear that the menus are being fixed, they've been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. And they'll have animations and shadows too? Nice. I assume we'll get them on combo drop downs as well?

  Using the native file chooser... im not sure how I feel about that one! Though it might be fine now, since I saw that in 7, visual styles are finally enabled for AWT! This is great news, the AWT print dialog wont look ugly anymore! Last time I tried the Swing based print dialog that's part of the PrintService API, it was pretty useless. (the printer properties button was always disabled)

  Posted by: benloud on February 06, 2007 at 08:04 PM

• I'd love to see an app that contains a small library of widgets, allows one to select favorite widgets, colors, icons.... and then spits out a usable LAF.

  Posted by: asailer on February 11, 2007 at 09:57 PM

• I'm relieved to hear that the menus are being fixed, they've been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. And they'll have animations and shadows too? Nice. I assume we'll get them on combo drop downs as well? Using the native file chooser... im not sure how I feel about that one! Though it might be fine now, since I saw that in 7, visual styles are finally enabled for AWT! This is great news, the AWT print dialog wont look ugly anymore! Last time I tried the Swing based print dialog that's part of the PrintService API, it was pretty useless. (the printer properties button was always disabled)

  
  clip sexe gay
  free xxx porn
  sexe black gay gratuit
  sexe star video photo gratuit
  photo and porno and gratis
  mature porno
  xxx totalement gratuit
  sex xxx hard photo gratuit
  xxx shannen doherty video free
  photo sexe masculin
  muscle men xxx hard
  sexe amateur extrait gratuit
  photo sexe homme nu
  demo video sexe gratuit
  sexe photo femme
  video de star xxx
  annuaire de sexe totalement gratuit
  top sexe fr
  sexe mature and boy
  galerie photo et sexe
  pin up toon xxx
  xxx anal sexe pictures
  extrait video sexe grtuit
  video jeune sexe
  photo porno couple gratuit
  sexe xxx trans
  arabe sexe gay
  sexe gay gratuit etranger
  porno gratuit amateur
  annuaire porno couple jeune
  femme sexe video
  xxx porn movies
  xxx extrait transexe
  sexe nipples porno
  lesbienne sexe bite
  pps sexy porno sexe
  photo porno star
  blonde xxx gratuit
  sexe web cam tout gratuit
  porno amateur.x gratuis
  film de porno a telecharge gratuit
  anal porno movies
  sexe video anal
  extrait video xxx son image gratuit
  sexe image
  gratuit xxx pic photo
  download free movies porno mpeg
  video sexe porno gratuit
  image porno gratuit
  free black porno picture
  video porno des star de cinema
  sexe vieille
  free anal porno
  chat cam sexe gratuit
  photo gay sexe
  rencontre sexe vendee
  sexe vieille pute
  jeu java sexe
  lolita tgp xxx gratuit
  actrice porno asiatique
  xxx clip free
  photo xxx gratos
  sexe femme noir
  sexe avec femme mure
  archive sex xxx video
  star photo sexe
  sex lolita xxx
  histoire sexe homme nu
  porno actrice
  femme experimentees sexe anal
  sexe video extreme
  video perso porno amateur
  free sample video porno
  web cam gratuite de sexe
  photo professeur xxx
  sex free porno
  extrait film porno vieille femme
  azzedine acteur porno
  photo sexe bizarre
  sexe mgp clip
  jeu sexe gratuis
  road sexe
  photo porno de naine
  photo porno de naine
  anal sexe video
  hard sexe photo gratuite
  sexe tres crade
  video sexe gratuit sans telechargement
  gay porno gratuit perso
  film et photo porno
  video porno femme mure pauline
  sexe rencontre amateur
  xxx movies jenna
  mangas gratuit sexe
  jeu and de and sexe and gratuit
  telechargement gratuit film porno
  photo porno femme black banlieue
  sexe film x gratuit marre faux site
  histoire sexe cocu
  chatte star sexe
  video gay porno extrait gratuit
  film porno gratuit anderson
  mangas and sexe and hentai and extrait and gratuit
  hard sexe porno
  jeu porno sans inscription
  video xxx sur vieille zt vieux bourgeois

  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  sexe
  note_porno_graphixxx_image_sexe_de_clara_morgane_image_sexe_porno_gratuit_arabe_sexe_video_conseil_sexe_porno_femme_maroc_porno_arabe_sexe_hard_francais_amateur_photo_porno_gratuite_video_porno
  note_photo_et_video_sexeizarre_gratuite_vieille_femme_qui_font_porno_acteur_pornoeur_sex_xxx_video_image_lolo_ferrari_xxx_webcam_perso_sexe_photo_sexe_amateur_volee_sous_jupe
  note_clip_porno_photo_gratuite_sexe_gratuit_image_porno_amateur_xxxlacks_concorde_dvd_porno_sexe_xxx_cul_porno_gay_video_extrait_gratuit_jeu_interactif_sexeite_sexe_photo_gratuite_muscle_sexe_live
  note_photo_porno_telecharge_film_sexeeurette_sexe_gaulois_out_jeu_de_sexe_xxxlog_hard_porno_galerie_isabelle_xxx_sexe_gratuit_star_porno_skyblog_photo_and_sexe_and_gratuite_sexe_and_arabe_video
  note_porno_pour_pc_video_sexelack_gratuit_casting_de_porno_en_france_petit_extrait_film_sexeeur_gratuit_pps_and_sexe_and_gratuit_video_xxx_tous_gratuit_video_sexe_hot_forum_doctissimo_sexelog_ave
  note_telechargement_and_porno_sexe_hot_string_jaquette_dvd_xxx_sexe_shop_paris_collection_xxx_photo_gratuite_msn_sexe_voyeur_clip_histoire_xxx_free_film_sexe_gratuit_longue_duree_photo_porno_xxx
  note_adulte_sexe_arabe_dilatation_sexe_anal_video_sexe_gratuite_amateur_sexe_hot_hard_sexe_gratuit_le_gaulois_hentai_xxx_mangas_xxx_extrait_video_porno_sans_telechargementlog_xxx_adulte
  note_sexe_avant_telechargement_porno_photo_xxxlack_porno_pokemon_hentai_xxx_xxx_collection_avec_xxx_collection_et_collection_porno_photo_trans_gratuit_amatrice_sexe_photo_film_porno_avec_femme
  note_pute_porno_sodomie_sexelack_interracial_photo_xxx_gratutes_video_sexe_xxx_femme_musulman_xxx_film_et_video_porno_star_chanteur_porno_star_academie_sexe_amateur_couple_star_xxx_gratuit_film
  note_xxx_video_gay_porno_gratuit_film_porno_gratuit_video_sexe_gay_galerie_porno_couple_mature_porno_gratuit_femme_mature_hds_histoire_sexe_lesbien_x_porno_gratuit_sex_porno_asiatique_sex_chatte_salope
  note_gay_jeu_and_porno_jeu_xxx_interactif_video_porno_star_xxx_gay_demo_gratuite_video_porno_et_xxx_porno_annuaire_sexe_video_gratuit_hard_amateur_xxx_gratuit_sexe_image_photo_hot_xxx_extrait_video
  note_photo_porno_xxx_clip_wives_xxx_free_sexe_shop_gratuit_zone_xxx_gay_etudiante_amatrice_de_sexe_sexe_couple_echangiste_photo_sexe_totalement_gratuit_photo_et_video_sexe_amateur_gratis_annuaire_sexe
  note_fouetlog_porno_gay_photo_sexe_gratuit_asiatique_chatte_poilu_sexe_maroc_image_porno_agadir_skyblog_sexe_msn_sexe_histoire_hot_galerie_video_sexe_porno_star_francais_video_hard_porn
  note_porno_italien_voir_telecharger_video_film_sexe_porno_totalement_gratuit_porno_gay_maroc_rencontre_sexe_dijon_extrait_video_gratuit_sexe_photolack_sexe_gratuite_photo_porno_amateur_discipline_gratuit
  note_free_porno_extrait_porno_extreme_anal_double_penetration_video_sexe_gratuit_asiatique_plus_and_gros_and_sexe_and_and_monde_mariah_carey_photo_xxx_photo_gratuite_sex_porno_live_sexe_extrait_film
  note_gratuit_sexe_video_porno_gratuite_photo_xxx_free_men_gay_xxx_video_sexe_amateur_gratuis_sexe_clip_chanteur_vida_o_porno_gratuite_sexe_live_francais_amateur_gay_sexe_photo_sexe_allaitement_adulte
  note_musclelack_xxx_jolie_femme_porno_porno_asiat_girls_gros_sexe_gaylack_clip_sexe_porno_sexe_vieux_avec_jeune_porno_sexelack_toutes_photo_sur_sexe_hard_maison_sexe_cam_film_porno_asiatique
  note_sexe_jeune_debutant_gros_plan_sur_des_sexe_foto_sexe_maturelog_and_porno_skyblog_guyane_sexe_galerie_porno_extreme_porno_anal_gay_porno_casting_gay_porno_video_gratis_womanlack_sexe
  note_porno_russe_gratuit_histoire_sexe_avecete_anal_gros_sexe_sexe_hot_friends_mom_extre_video_porno_film_gay_porno_gratuit_sexe_gratuit_video_photo_forum_sexe_celebre_porno_star_porno_and_star
  note_homme_pour_du_sexe_sexe_hard_fr_skyblog_porno_amateur_lesbienne_sein_porno_histoire_hard_cul_sexe_xxx_proposal_porno_galerie_amateur_sexe_gratuit_sexe_extreme_free_image_photo_de_sexe_photo
  note_mature_gratuit_sexe_le_plus_gros_du_monde_video_porno_plus_video_xxx_clip_sexe_sexe_amateur_echangiste_actricelack_porno_xxx_cul_sodomie_image_sexe_humour_femme_chaude_sexe_homme_cherche
  note_xxx_sex_porno_lesbienne_lesbien_xxx_sexe_gay_photo_sexe_and_hard_and_gratuit_sexe_star_fake_free_pics_xxx_actrice_porno_maroc_hot_xxx_sexe_eteau_petit_cul_video_xxx_gratuit_visionne_porno_femme
  note_sexe_gratuit_sexe_extreme_gay_video_francais_porno_lingerie_homme_sexe_femme_sexe_xxx_rencontre_femme_mature_sexe_chambery_film_porno_gratuits_com_clip_video_porno_film_porno_gratuit_fresh
  note_xxx_gay_sexe_d_homme_age_skyblog_avec_du_sexe_societe_production_film_porno_casting_sexy_clip_video_porno_us_gay_porno_film_sexe_extreme_hard_pornolack_gay_hard_galerie_sexe_cromignon_jeu
  note_sexe_porno_gratuite_lesbienne_sexe_string_portail_du_sexe_fr_video_and_free_and_xxx_voir_video_porno_amateur_gratuit_sexe_amateur_photo_lesbienne_sexe_chat_free_doujinshi_mangas_sexe_et_magie_hot
  note_sexe_cinema_pornoelge_sophie_xxx_histoire_sexe_rencontreretagne_vente_de_dvd_porno_gay_video_porno_hot_and_xxx_film_arabe_porno_rencontre_femme_sexe_dvd_sexe_lesbienne_lolita_and_xxx_video
  note_download_free_movies_porno_photo_porno_asiatique_gratuit_sexe_ultime_com_annuaire_gratuit_porno_film_sexe_totalement_gratuit_sexe_et_porno_petit_clip_porno_cinema_film_porno_maghrebine_photo_xxx
  note_portail_porno_gratuit_forum_menopause_et_sexe_extrait_clip_et_film_sexe_gratuit_divx_porno_emule_casting_porno_amateur_couple_et_sexe_montage_video_celebrite_porno_gratuite_sexe_femme_poilue
  note_francais_gratuit_sex_gratuit_xxx_cul_extrait_casting_porno_porno_video_gratuit_femme_mure_video_porno_sexe_lesbienne_video_sexe_video_porno_gratuite_d_asiatique_annuaire_video_porno_gratuit_sexe
  note_xxx_porno_staraisees_gratuit_modele_photo_xxx_histoire_de_sexe_de_lesbienne_webcam_live_xxx_gratuit_arielle_dombasle_cinema_porno_femme_amatrice_de_sexelack_girls_porno_porno_amateur
  note_video_arabe_hetero_porno_sexe_poilu_amateur_sexe_gay_photo_enorme_sexelack_lesbienne_sexe_porno_sexe_pps_gratuit_mangas_cartoon_xxx_forum_sexe_adulte_paradis_porno_gratuit_femme_divorce
  note_amateur_sexe_sexe_hard_gros_plan_sexe_cam_string_sexe_clip_video_galerie_foto_porno_xxx_clip_porno_porno_anal_hard_porno_amateur_gratuit_video_sexe_gratuit_asiatique_page_perso_sexe_porno_extrait
  note_film_xxx_sexe_gratuit_vieille_cochon_sexeizarre_archivelack_xxx_photo_rencontre_sexe_vaud_sexe_shop_valenciennes_film_sexe_sperme_film_adulte_xxx_histoire_drole_de_sexe_photo
  note_sexe_star_nu_xxx_photo_galerie_sexe_gratuit_sexe_free_gratuit_image_femme_porno_xxxlackoob_sex_gay_porno_casting_porno_sur_paris_sexe_shop_online_grenoble_hot_porno_star_enculeur_gay_xxx
  note_porno_joachim_sexe_de_femme_arabe_sexe_porno_du_maroc_skyblog_porno_video_lesbienne_and_sexe_free_sample_xxx_amatrice_sexe_reele_sexe_sexe_hot_telechargement_video_star_porno_clip_gratuit
  note_asiatique_visionner_video_porno_gay_hardound_xxx_gros_penis_sexe_extrait_and_video_and_sexe_and_gratuit_image_gratuit_porno_extrait_gratuit_de_dvd_porno_sex_sex_sex_xxx_porno_and_xxx_acteur
  note_telechargement_divx_porno_couple_tres_sexe_avec_photo_et_tel_porno_amateur_free_cam_lesbienne_sexe_sexe_and_gay_and_gratuit_free_password_xxx_histoire_sexuelle_porno_femme_video_sexe_gratuite
  note_sexe_cartoon_futurama_xxx_gay_hot_xxx_video_sexe_gratuit_com_telecharger_divx_porno_sexe_gay_extrait_video_gratuit_video_sexe_asiatique_gratuit_video_amateur_xxx_americain_gratuite_trans_sexe_poilu
  note_film_pornographique_image_porno_gratis_hentai_et_mangas_porno_divx_xxx_emule_extrait_clip_porno_gratuit_semaine_sexe_extrait_video_gratuit_long_amatrice_sexeelge_image_and_xxxlog_video_amateur
  note_photo_sexe_amateur_hard_live_sexe_sexe_hard_photo_gratuite_sexy_xxx_password_pornoateau_lesbienne_star_du_porno_francais_sexe_for_free_mini_clip_sexe_lingerie_sexe_shoplog_video_xxx_sexe
  note_sex_xxx_video_video_porno_amateur_gratuit_sexe_d_homme_noir_rencontre_sexeizarre_essonne_free_sexe_webcam_mature_porno_star_planet_disney_xxx_extrait_film_porno_jour_film_xxx_gratuit_vrai
  note_sexe_and_gratuit_free_porno_movie_fotos_porno_gratis_xxx_sex_porno_entai_mangas_porno_free_movies_porno_anal_photo_video_x_porno_photo_porno_gratuite_jeune_couple_voyorisme_sexe_xxx_free
  note_gratuit_porno_and_sexe_photo_porno_hard_gratis_grosse_femme_sexe_photo_jeune_femme_porno_actrice_mangas_porno_gratuit_gratis_porno_salaire_acteur_porno_photo_mineur_porno_nu_gratuite_amatrice
  note_porno_gratuite_xxx_adult_erotica_sex_xxx_tit_histoire_et_photo_porno_video_porno_gratis_sexe_amateur_gratuit_sans_connexion_hard_sexe_gratui_video_porno_gratuite_mature_sexe
  note_video_xxx_gratuite_a_telecharger_porno_gay_photo_gratuit_xxxlog_mpg_sexe_movie_clip_gratuit_femmeien_xxx_et_qui_fonaise_sexelack_men_cinema_xxx_hard_porno_webcam_xxx_gratis_sexe_arabe
  note_xxx_lagitane_sexe_xxx_categorie_sexe_feminin_sexe_extreme_crade_xxx_clip_video_free_sexe_pic_video_porno_avec_extrait_video_sexe_gratui_t_en_live_porno_hentai_mangas_gratuit_sexe_video_extreme
  note_video_and_porno_and_gratuite_porno_sexe_anal_porno_xxx_sex_free_xxx_picture_mangas_xxx_video_gratuit_moteur_recherche_sexe_gratuit_photo_porno_lesbienne_antillaise_film_xxx_gratuit_sur_web_private
  note_and_sexe_and_gratuit_video_porno_gratuite_sans_telechargement_flim_porno_gratui_porno_sex_xxx_hot_video_gratis_xxx_power_video_clip_free_xxx_gay_hard_sex_xxx_young_hard_core_sexe_fellation_amateur
  note_amateur_francais_porno_video_film_gratuit_sexe_et_sexe_xxx_video_hot_sexe_domination_sado_vieille_sexe_video_sexe_gratuit_fr_video_a_gogo_sexe_archive_photo_porno_retrolog_and_sexe_and_amatrice
  note_telechargement_sexe_amateur_gratos_sexe_gay_pornoite_xxx_amateur_xxx_lesbienne_caps_actrice_porno_visio_chat_sexe_gratuit_msn_petite_histoire_de_sexe_sexe_porno_transsexuelle_salope_xxx
  note_amateur_francais_porno_video_film_gratuit_sexe_et_sexe_xxx_video_hot_sexe_domination_sado_vieille_sexe_video_sexe_gratuit_fr_video_a_gogo_sexe_archive_photo_porno_retrolog_and_sexe_and_amatrice
  note_telechargement_sexe_amateur_gratos_sexe_gay_pornoite_xxx_amateur_xxx_lesbienne_caps_actrice_porno_visio_chat_sexe_gratuit_msn_petite_histoire_de_sexe_sexe_porno_transsexuelle_salope_xxx
  note_xxx_coquin_free_sexeizarre_photo_porno_arabe_gratuitlack_ass_xxx_porno_avec_webcam_perso_extrait_and_video_and_and_sexe_and_gratuitd_porno_sexe_porno_xxl_video_porno_xxl_gratuit_porno_sex
  note_photo_gratuite_sexe_jeu_porno_sur_flash_galerie_porno_sex_xxxlack_porno_arabe_gratuit_jeu_sexe_gratuite_hardcore_xxx_video_sexe_porno_video_video_jeune_gay_porno_imageelle_femme_xxx_jeu
  note_exhibitionniste_page_perso_webcam_sexe_free_sexe_chat_portail_sexe_amateur_video_sexe_gratuiteurette_sexe_asiatique_porno_image_sexe_telephone_portable_final_and_fantasy_and_xxx_star_nu_photo
  note_gay_and_porno_and_gratuit_annuaire_video_porno_gratuite_porno_gay_francais_image_porno_free_sexe_or_gratuit_or_extrait_hercul_disney_xxx_amatrice_and_libertin_and_sexe_and_xxx_and_pro_and
  note_extrait_video_gratuit_film_porno_clip_sex_porno_video_gratuite_de_star_porno_dbz_xxx_photo_sexe_gratuit_porno_video_xxx_sample_free_longue_video_gratuite_sexe_lesbienne_sexe_video_filmes_porno_gratis
  note_sexe_amateur_voir_video_mangas_porno_gratuite_sexe_extrait_video_gratuitlog_retro_porno_sexeizarre_free_photo_photo_sexeeurette_femme_qui_pissent_uro_xxx_star_du_porno_clara_morganeulma
  note_photo_porno_femme_indienne_metisse_image_yasmine_actrice_pornoella_dona_mature_sexe_actrice_italienne_porno_star_porno_sex_xxx_annuaire_and_video_and_sexe_andlog_andlog_gratuit_and_adulte_and
  note_femme_mure_xxx_film_porno_gratuit_francaislogspot_xxx_sex_porn_video_movies_mastur_xxx_vogue_image_sexe_gratuite_homme_plus_grand_sexe_monde_photo_porno_mec_maroc_fabbw_sexe_image
  note_femme_tres_mure_anal_vaginal_sexe_gratuit_photo_de_nu_xxx_skyblog_mangas_porno_video_gratuite_sexe_amateur_sexe_asiatique_gros_sein_sexe_gratuit_vieille_femme_gayoy_xxx_sexe_femme
  note_de_photo_de_sexe_gratuite_porno_chic_classe_xxx_password_tk_photo_pornolackonus_acces_gratuit_video_porno_sexe_xxx_photo_gratuite_image_sexe_gay_chat_sexe_webcam_gratuit_photo_sex
  note_gratuit_extrait_video_porno_x_photo_sexe_amateur_contribution_gratuite_photo_gros_plan_sexe_gratuitlog_sexe_couple_exib_telecharger_extrait_gratuit_porno_mangas_xxx_porno_jeune_salope_xxx_annuaire
  note_anal_photo_sexe_cul_gay_homme_xxx_noir_couple_sexe_photo_star_porno_sex_hardcore_anal_photo_sexe_amateur_voyeur_webcam_et_video_porno_gratuite_voir_clip_porno_petit_sexe_poilu_hard_sexe
  note_gratuit_porno_long_extrait_sexe_long_gratuit_gratuit_sexe_sexe_xxx_xxx_xxx_femme_sexe_asiatique_gratuit_photo_sexe_porno_femme_arabe_sexe_gaulois_and_mature_extrait_film_porno_yasmine_video_xxx
  note_feminin_femme_mure_libertin_aimant_sexelog_gay_photo_porno_photo_porno_femme_cubaine_free_xxx_thumbnail_galerie_porno_anal_gratuit_porno_sexe_gratuit_fr_clip_video_porno_gratos_sexe_video
  note_video_film_porno_grosse_video_francaise_de_sexe_forum_amateur_sexe_porno_star_du_x_casting_porno_francais_telecharger_video_hard_sexe_porno_femme_agee_photo_actrice_porno_echographie_sexe
  note_extrait_video_porno_gratis_telechargement_video_extrait_gratuit_pornolog_sexe_cam_hentai_gamme_xxx_gratis_extrait_de_film_porno_gratuite_film_sexe_gay_video_porno_francais_gratuite_free_gay_porno
  note_video_hentai_xxx_annuaire_porno_africain_video_sexe_francais_pepe_photo_sexe_hard_photo_gros_plan_sexe_porno_sexe_sexe_sexe_sexe_ultime_com_photo_porno_gratuit_amateur_sex_xxx_free
  note_telechargement_gratuit_porno_video_porno_totalement_gratuite_porno_sex_gratuit_live_webcam_gratuis_sexe_mangas_xxx_hentai_free_and_porno_z_extrait_video_porno_xxx_porno_malgache_photo_porno
  note_porno_gay_video_gratuite_final_fantasy_xxx_star_xxx_sein_nu_sexe_porno_live_extrait_video_sexelog_webcam_porno_photo_gratuite_de_sexe_de_lesbienne_clip_gratos_porno_sexe
  note_galerie_xxx_gratuite_sexe_vieille_femme_cochon_chat_sexe_gratuit_sans_inscription_sexe_gay_hard_photo_gratuit_free_pic_salope_xxx_sexe_online_fr_video_cam_to_cam_sexe_xxx_arabe_gratuit_sexeizarre
  note_telechargement_gratuit_photo_porno_rencontre_sexe_melun_gratuit_extrait_film_xxx_photo_gay_sexe_gratuit_sexe_immondeizarre_video_amateur_porno_gratuit_film_trait_amateur_porno
  note_film_de_sexe_gratui_video_porno_gratuite_amateur_annuaire_histoire_de_sexe_video_sexe_mangas_gratuit_star_xxxlonde_devenir_actrice_porno_anal_sexe_video_sex_xxxonne_photo_image_anal_cul_sexe
  note_porno_amateur_gratuit_weeb_cam_sexe_film_x_sexe_annuaire_porno_gay_gratuit_extrait_divx_porno_gratuit_photo_asiatique_porno_photo_porno_gratuite_delack_femme_fontaine_xxx_photo_arabe_sexe
  note_porno_gay_sexe_extrait_video_avant_telechargement_alexialog_sexe_pps_image_sexy_sexe_sexe_photo_gratuite_lesbienne_video_porno_francais_xxx_image_de_star_porno_leticia_et_film_porno_amateur
  note_sexe_gratuit_contribution_sexe_photo_amateur_sexe_gay_photo_gratuit_extrait_video_porno_gay_gratuit_video_gratuite_sur_sexe_sans_abonnement_annuaire_xxx_gratuit_xxx_final_fantasy_casting_film
  note_photo_video_sexe_amateur_gratuit_pornolack_men_explosionanale_ls_la_fr_sexe_anal_gratuit_petit_femme_htm_mangas_porno_gratuite_film_xxx_gratuit_com_voir_clip_video_mangas_sexe_hentai_video_phot
  notelack_sexe_hot_xxx_forum_sexe_anal_sodomie_demo_film_porno_sexe_pipi_crade_sexe_gratuit_video_francais_jeu_porno_a_telecharger_gratuit_dragonall_xxx_sexe_gratuiteurette_sexelackrutal
  note_porno_star_arabe_hot_xxx_free_porno_pictures_sexe_and_extreme_xxx_password_vintage_video_sexe_gay_poiluears_sexe_erotique_porno_lesbienne_gratuit_chat_webcam_hard_cul_pipe_rencontre_femme
  note_film_and_porno_and_amateur_and_gratis_xxx_sex_photo_gratuitlog_amateur_site_gratuit_sexe_extrait_video_porno_americaine_film_porno_maroc_actrice_maroc_porno_us_porno_gay_les_femme_arabe
  note_telecharger_porno_hard_sexe_sexe_mangas_gratuit_xxx_webcam_exhibitionnisteeurette_sexe_amateur_sexe_et_gros_sein_telecharger_jeu_porno_gratuit_fr_webcam_amateur_porno_photo_pornoelle
  note_download_xxx_sexe_gratuit_jeune_cam_sexe_gratuit_extrait_video_sexe_gratuit_et_avec_son_gemissement_video_xxxeurette_femme_poilu_porno_histoire_gratuite_sexe_sans_tabou_extrait_porno
  note_film_porno_vieille_femme_ici_photo_sexe_gratuit_video_porno_extrait_sexe_entre_lesbienne_sexe_mature_fatig_women_pissing_photo_star_porno_gratis_photo_xxx_clara_morgane_xxx_photo_gratuit_mature
  note_photo_lesbienne_xxx_casting_video_sexe_amateur_video_sexe_xxx_sexelacklonde_clip_video_porno_enregistre_rechercher_video_pokemon_porno_xxx_extrait
  note_porno_exhibitionniste_telecharger_film_sexe_intention_francais_sexe_film_freed_xxx_gratuite_filmographie_actrice_porno_photo_xxx_sexe_tgp_gratuit_jeune_chinoise_sexe_video_cul_xxx_mangas_xxx_free
  note_porno_clara_morganeeurette_sexe_xxx_photo_sexe_gratuitizarre_image_porno_a_telecharger_mangas_porno_gratui_live_sexe_show_sexe_pute_lesbienne_chatte_sexe_hard_gay_amatrice_libertin_sexe_xxx
  note_xxx_photo_amateur_elodie_forum_sexe_sex_porno_gratuit_sexe_femme_mure_avec_jeune_photo_gratuite_sexe_homme_photo_porno_lesbienne_gratuit_telecharger_video_xxx_extrait_film_amateur_sexe_filn
  note_gratuit_clip_film_porno_photo_porno_gratuite_femme_ronde_tout_skylog_pornolog_sur_sexe_sex_porno_free_francaisaise_video_porno_sexe_mature_pps_hard_sexe_gay_porno_video_gratuit

  Posted by: manuloc on May 29, 2007 at 01:20 AM

• Forget about L&F's, its NOT the way to go. SWT actually went the right way by wanted to render native look according to the platform and that's what users expect.

  I don't know how many times I have tried a application and said "Oh god, this looks and feels so Java) because of the obvious glitches (no resize icon/no statusbar, save/open dialogs not reacting to double click but want to rename, systray menu looking odd (AWT) etc etc.) Basically it leaves me with an "gee that's amateurish" feeling.

  Then there's the problem of matching up custom components, what a nightmare that is to try to make the entire UI look like it matches.

  Posted by: mrmorris on June 30, 2007 at 07:10 AM

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.