Jim Cushing's Blog: Standards Killed the IDE Star

Sun might decide to join the Eclipse party after all. The IBM-lead project has been a bit of a thorn in Sun's side. Part of the controversy is the name itself, which Sun believes is an intentional affront (IBM denies this). But the real issue is that Sun fears they are losing their stewardship of Java and Java developers. After all, Sun wants its NetBeans to be the Java integrated development environment (IDE) community project. And IBM's Standard Widget Toolkit (SWT) is an alternative (some would say a better one) to Sun's pure-Java, but much maligned, Swing library.

According to an InfoWorld article, Sun may be willing to kiss and make up to be part the Eclipse community. But just like a year and a half ago, when IBM first extended this invitation, Sun is only willing to do so under its own terms.

According Joe Keller, Sun's vice president of Java Web Service and Tools Marketing, Sun's interest in joining the Eclipse community is to "make sure they pursue Java standards in the right way." By "the right way," of course, he means Sun's way, which involves the drawn out Java Community Process (JCP) which stifles innovation and delays product releases. First on the agenda, Sun wants the community to define a standard for IDE plugins, that could be used equally well in NetBeans as it could in Eclipse.

The question is, outside of Sun, is anyone really asking for such a standard? The paradoxical thing about standards is they force support for only the lowest common subset of functionality and while simultaneously forcing inclusion of each and every idea that comes out of a brainstorming session. Committees are neither adept at recognizing when there is nothing more to add nor when there are still things left to take away.

Sun's desperate pursuit to be the anti-Microsoft means they want everything to be a standard, and everything decided by committee. It also means they stubbornly refuse to make a profit off of their Java endeavors, one of the few things of worth to come out of the company. Instead, they leave that task to the very companies that are best positioned to snatch control of Java away from them. IBM stands as one of the most notable candidates.

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Comments are listed in date ascending order (oldest first) | Post Comment

JSR 198?
The unified plugin standard mentioned as Sun's "agenda" appears to be JSR 198 - which is actually being led by Oracle, not Sun (and IBM, JetBrains, etc are all involved).

http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=198

(I'm not involved in that in any way, I've just seen it criticised as vapourware on the maven-dev lists)

I agree that there's a diverse range of integration issues, so it doesn't make sense to try to ensure that /all/ plugins run in /all/ IDEs, but it doesn't mean to say that progress can't be made by cherrypicking the kinds of plugins that /can/ be standardised, and agreeing on a packaging format - this would reduce maintenance costs for plugin developers. eg, jalopy has 7 different versions of its plugin and /still/ doesnt support IDEA.

Posted by: ba22a on November 12, 2003 at 02:20 AM

JSR 198?
I'll admit that I had not read (nor was I aware of) JSR 198 when I wrote this blog. But the InfoWorld article quotes Joe Keller (VP of Java Web Service & Tools Marketing at Sun) as saying "[a unified plug-in standard] would be our agenda in joining Eclipse" so I wasn't making any leaps of faith with my statement.

I fear that JSR 198 or any other standard-IDE push will lead to more uniformity in IDEs, which I think we simply don't need. I have yet to find a Java IDE that I'm really happy with (give me back my screen real estate; tabbed editors and outlines instead of function pop-up menus are the biggest culprits), and it seems the Java IDEs are already duplicating each others mistakes.

Granted, JSR 198 says nothing about function pop-ups or tabbed editiors, but it does mention gallery items, navigators, and wizards that assume a particular layout and interface of an IDE. Also note that it mentions AWT and Swing, which likely won't fit in well with Eclipse.

My point is, I want to see more innovation and "out-of-the-box" thinking in Java IDEs (and desktop applications in general). I'm skeptical that Sun's involvement and standards push with help the Eclipse project.

Posted by: jimothy on November 12, 2003 at 08:36 AM

JSR 198?
Fair enough.

Offtopic, on the screen real estate thing, I agree 100%. On laptops switching back to XEmacs used to be the only thing that made editing tolerable. These days, IDEA's got "autohide" drawing pins that give me back pretty much the whole screen to see the code if I want. Maybe something to look at?

A nifty space-saving feature appeared in DW2004: menus for toolbars. You can just about see it in this (cluttered) screenshot:
http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/productinfo/features/static_tour/design/user_interface_overhaul.html

On the left of the toolbar at the top right is a dropdown, currently showing the "Common" toolbar. Much quicker than "Customize toolbars..." , much neater than showing all the bars.

Posted by: ba22a on November 12, 2003 at 10:59 AM

Plugin standards
I would definitely like a standard IDE plugin API. It seems all of the language editors (Groovy, for example) are being written for Eclipse, and I think it's silly that I can't use them in IDEA.

Posted by: keithkml on November 12, 2003 at 05:38 PM

Standars versus World Java Braimstorming
It's quite clear that we need standars and specifications to really not get locked in to a vendor or platform (remember that.. "code once, run anywhere?) and obviouslly to not get tied to an IDE (eclipse, xemacs, Netbeans...). But try to put everything under comitees control gonna make us lose the beauty of the world java braimstorming, where we have houndreds of frameworks, groups, comunities working to improve the java platform (Struts has become a standar "de facto" instead of the Java Server Faces, and the IBM's SWT beats graphically SUN'S Awt or Swing, and ..). Let me ask you something.. Is JCF doing his job? I mean Is JCF putting order in the development of Java technology?, or we need a kind of W3C for the java platform? (not tied to any company at all).

Posted by: dieg0 on November 13, 2003 at 04:43 AM

Standars versus World Java Braimstorming
Of course I mean JCP, not JCF sorry about the spelling/english.. ;)

Posted by: dieg0 on November 13, 2003 at 04:48 AM

SWT a waste
I've never seen any value in SWT and have always considered it a wasted effort. Much of the effort that goes in to maintaining SWT ports could have been directed at the core Eclipse features.
Eclipse is the better IDE when compared to NetBeans.. there is no question about that. But I don't buy in to this idea that Sun is a monster, that the JCP hinders innovation. I think the JCP is a good idea and I have seen that Sun wants it to evolve to meet the needs of developers. It is far less annoying than the dictatorship that is Microsoft. In the Microsoft domain the APIs are designed behind closed doors without enough developer input and generally always suffer for it. Even though Sun maintains ultimate control (and I see no reason why they shouldn't - so long as they do so responsibly), the JCP is reasonable.

Posted by: swpalmer on November 13, 2003 at 08:55 AM

Standards and innovation
It wasn't really my intent to discuss the worth of SWT, and certainly not to start an SWT vs. Swing debate. How SWT is germaine to my topic, however, is that it represents a choice, an alternative for those who prefer it.

Next to brace style, the choice of an IDE or editor is perhaps the most personal decision a developer makes. It borders on a religious issue. Choice is good. Most developers will let you pry their IDE or editor from their cold, dead fingers. (Incidentally, you can readily take Eclipse from my open palm as soon as I find a decent Java IDE with function pop-ups instead of an outline view, as I've used in BBEdit, Codewarrior, Project Builder, XCode, and Visual Studio).

Microsoft squashes choice and innovation by monopoly power. Sun squashes it through committee and standards.

That's right; committees and standards are limitting choice. Okay, I can choose between Weblogic and Websphere, but I've still got the morase that is J2EE. Something that isn't "the standard," such as WebObjects, gets pushed to the sideline into obscurity, despite its relative merit.

Assuming Sun gets its way with standardize IDE plug-ins--which will, by necessity, effectively standardize many interface details of the IDEs themselves--we'll wind up with less choice, not more. That's because the landscape will be flattened. The IDEs will become more and more uniform as they mold themselves around the standard.

Standards are useful and even necessary in many domains (though I think Sun grossly exaggerates their worth in many areas). But in something so personal and so much a matter of personal taste as an IDE, they have no place.

Posted by: jimothy on November 13, 2003 at 10:49 AM

IDE
Give IntelliJ a try. I hated it at first but then played with it for a while and now it is a permanent addition to my toolset. Sits there right next to VI.

Posted by: mzarra on November 13, 2003 at 04:06 PM

IDE
Standardisation of a run time platform like 'java' is great ...
Standardisation of a enterprise services platform like J2ee is good ...

Why do we need standards for an IDE ? As along as an IDE spits out 'java' or 'j2ee' compliant output , why squelch the variety in IDEs using standards?
In any case, such standards will not have a strong deterrent effect on anyone who wants to produce a non-standards-compliant IDE. The market for a non-compliant IDE will be the same as a compliant IDE - all Java developers.
Ofcourse, the same argument can be used to welcome an IDE plug standard. Such standards will do no harm, while some good can come out of it. We will have an abundance of plug ins that can be made available to everyone to choose from.

I think this argument over standards is a skirmish with little long term impact on domination of Java by any of the parties.

Posted by: vcpd on November 13, 2003 at 11:11 PM

SWT a waste
> I've never seen any value in SWT

Have you read the SWT design background documents that are on the Eclipse site? Check out:

http://www.eclipse.org/articles/Article-SWT-Design-1/SWT-Design-1.html
and
http://www.eclipse.org/articles/swt-design-2/swt-design-2.html

as they provide the 'raison etre' for SWT.

Personally, I think they make persuasive case (not that I needed persuading that AWT used a sub-optimal approach!). But I've not used Eclipse on a non-Windows environment, so I cannot comment on its success as a cross-platform toolkit.

Posted by: therave on November 14, 2003 at 02:18 AM

JSR 198?
I've learned never to discuss politics or religion with my in-laws. Does that include IDE religion?

I've used three (really four) Java IDE's with the different companies for which I worked: PowerJ (now defunct), Visual Cafe, and Visual Age/WSAD. Good thing I didn't get hooked on the first two, or I'd be very unhappy right now. The point is that IDE's come and go. What is needed is a standard for developing IDE pluggable and extensible components.

Eclipse has done well with this concept. As a matter of fact, you could write the plug-in to convert the Eclipse IDE into your ideal IDE. Any non-existing SWT widgets could also be written. The point of Eclipse is that it is more than an IDE, it's a platform for developing an IDE. That concept provides value by moving the IDE vendors from writing the code from the ground up to concentrating on producing individual modules which deliver the functionality people want.

One last note, what about project Rave? As I understand, that is Sun's attempt to produce MS Visual Studio for Java. Wouldn't this fly in the face of Sun joining Eclipse? Then again, they could make release two of Rave a plug-in for Eclipse and beat everyone else to the punch.

The religious debate will likely never end. If we can find that solution that makes 80% of the people happy, but offers the other 20% an acceptable option, we can make IDE's a safe topic for dinner conversation again.

Posted by: john_watts on November 14, 2003 at 06:04 AM

SWT and Swing
The rift isn't really as big as it seems at first.
If either Sun or IBM is serious about mending relations, they could put a few developers on these projects.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/swtswing/
http://swingwt.sourceforge.net/

It would be good for the relationship between Sun and IBM, and good for the relationships each company has with its developers.

I would like a plug-in standard for IDEs.
Of course the "IDEs" that use includes Eclipse, jEdit, and juliet, so the task is a pretty tall order.

Posted by: coxcu on November 14, 2003 at 09:13 AM

Typo
Make that 'raison d'etre'. Doh!

Posted by: therave on November 14, 2003 at 09:27 AM

SWT and Swing
Indeed, it would be nice to get some help :)
SWTSwing requires some skilled developers, and I don't have much time these days to push it further.
If anyone is interested in contributing, please send a mail.

-Christopher
chrriis@brainlex.com

Posted by: chrriis on November 17, 2003 at 02:11 PM

SWT and Swing
Agreed - I wouldn't mind some help with SwingWT :)

I am just one bloke, and Swing is pretty big...

Posted by: bobintetley on November 18, 2003 at 02:44 AM

JSR 198?
Eclipse does much the same. Doubleclick on the filename of an opened file and it will switch to fullscreen editing mode. Repeat to return to standard mode.

The ever greater loss of screen realestate to ever more windows, tabpanes, and other dead space is indeed not a good thing and has been getting on my nerve for a good while now.
Another good compromise is the approach taken by TopStyle Pro, where you can set some of the less used parts of the window to collapse when not in use and automatically reappear laid over the file you're working on when you move the mousecursor to the edge of the screen.
Prevents a mouseclick :)

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