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BeansBinding -> BetterBeansBinding

Posted by fabriziogiudici on March 30, 2009 at 5:24 PM PDT

To be clear, this is not an April's fool. As a follow-up to my previous post, I can tell that I've talked with Peter Zhelezniakov, the person presently in charge of JSR-295, and he's been very kind, on behalf of Sun, to provide me with all the drafts and development documentation left by Shannon Hickey. We discussed a couple of things and we decided that it's better to proceed with the fork, as the original BeansBinding must be maintained (and possible evolved) as the strict reference implementation of JSR-295; while BetterBeansBinding will be extended too. It makes sense.

So, I've choosen jimbethancourt's suggestion for the new name and BetterBeansBinding has been born! It lives on Kenai at the following URL:

Now, please give me a few days to set up the thing and to sketch on the Wiki the ideas about the new project, as per the suggestions you gave me commenting my original post. There are many things to do and, of course, for most of them I need the participation of people that expressed interest so far. Please keep an eye on my blog and to the BetterBeansBinding page so you'll know when we are ready to start. In the meantime, you could subscribe to Kenai and join the project (as Observer or Developer; in the latter case, please subscribe to the dev@ mailing list and present yourself, telling us how would you like to contribute).

In the meantime, I'm asking for someone to provide Hudson hosting for the project: my own Hudson server is already overloaded with blueMarine CI and I'm pulling stuff out if it rather than adding. My needs are: availability of both JDK 5 and JDK 6, Cobertura and FindBugs plugins, capability of sending emails... and maybe a couple of minor things ;-)

Thanks. In particular, thanks to Shannon for putting me in touch with Peter.


It all sounds good. Looking forward to this.

@luano Ah yes indeed. I missed the host-led part. Good job I am not a lawyer! Thanks for pointing that out. So licensing scare over, I was wrong. Time to roll up my sleeves and start helping out.

@swpalmer Unfortunately, the original BB is no more maintained since end of 2007; and at the moment there's nobody working on it. People need patches and bug fixes, but nobody does them. BTW, even though people could do them on their own, they are compelled to contribute them back, but nobody is currently receiving them. While BetterBeansBinding will have new features, we'll keep compatibility with the original BB, so it will work as a drop-in replacement of BB. There's a number of much more complex technologies for which exist both a reference implementation and multiple alternate ones, and they work; I don't see why things shouldn't work with BBB.

How does being a forked project affect the use of BetterBeansBinding within NetBeans? Why can't JSR-295 evolve to include the extensions the community wants? I fear that forking this project will basically result in a huge drop in it's acceptance by developers. I for one would prefer to stick to the JSR reference implementation because I suspect that is what IDEs and other tools will work with.

I've been confirmed by Sun (and an independent observer who's skilled in legal stuff) that the troubled clause only refers to projects led by Sun. BBB clearly isn't in that group. Also, since BBB is under LGPL 2.1 (couldn't be otherwise, same licensing as BB), even the "If no license..." clause doesn't apply. I know that Sun is working to explain better the legal stuff, which unfortunately is always doomed to be obscure to common mortals.

@phenderson The clause you refer to states that the grants is for 'Host-led Projects'. Presumably this project does not fall into this category?

Maybe it's my not-so-good comprehension of english legalese, but I don't understand where the problem is. I don't see any "bypassing the authors license", which I don't think would be legal; the sentence starting with "Notwithstanding..." refers to "Host-led projects", which AFAIU are Sun-led projects; thus the sentence doesn't seem to apply to BBB. In any case, I'm always appreciating people searching for strange things in fine printings; let me go over it a bit more. Thanks.

It's a shame you are hosting it on Kenai. I was all set to sign up and create an account so I could contribute my 2p worth. But reading the small print of the Kenai Terms & Conditions it seems they (Sun) want to bypass any license placed on the code hosted.. Due to past experiences, I won't be able to help Better Beans Binding. ;-( As an aside. If someone sent a patch (not via Kenai) you would not, strictly, be able to apply it. As that would be bypassing the authors license? From ... b. Source Code Submissions. You agree that any source code You contribute to a Project will be submitted under, and subject to, the license posted for that Project. If no license is posted, You agree that Your Submission will be governed by the New BSD License, which terms can be found at Notwithstanding the two previous sentences, for source code contributed to Host-led Projects, You hereby grant to Hosts a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive and fully sub-licensable right and license under Your intellectual property rights to reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, publicly perform, publicly display and use such source code, and to incorporate or implement it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, all subject to the obligation to retain any copyright notices included in Your source code. In any case, You acknowledge that You are responsible for including all applicable copyright notices and licenses with Your Submissions, and that You assume the risks of failing to do so, including the potential loss of Your rights to Your Submissions.

I have one project based on BeansBinding and definitely can say that in the pure implementation it is not usable. There are many changes in which can be found in that project In that project the BeansBinding are expanded with annotations and validatiors.

Thanks for the hint.

Did you know that you can make your project URL on Kenai a little more personal by just using No big deal, but it makes it look a little more like your own and not something hanging off of Kenai.

Just wait for the CI system to be up and running. Then we'll be able to work.

Hi Fabrizio, I'm honored that you picked my suggestion. :-) Any room for extra help from time to time? Thanks so much, Jim Bethancourt

Ok, I got the Hudson hosting. News in a few days.

I guess there are two main reasons for the fork: 1. must be a simple and clear reference implementation of JSR-295. In other words, there is no room for improvements extra JSR-295, and people would like to do many. 2. I didn't learn of any plan for evolving JSR-295. If you look at the JSR page, it is marked as inactive. But in a week, a month or a year somebody could resume it. It's a bureaucratic thing, as there are many members in the JSR in addition to Sun. The point is that people can't live with a thing that at the moment is not supported, and you don't know if and when could be resumed.

Since we haven't heard from Peter, can you give us some details, if you know them, on where 295 is and is headed? I guess I don't understand the fork, if Sun (or someone) is going to continue with 295.