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DEVOXX Day 3 - JUG BOF with James Gosling - MP3 recording

Posted by sunahouston on November 19, 2009 at 1:41 AM PST

Here is a raw recording of the JUG BOF at DEVOXX with James Gosling who was our special host. We had 56 Java User Groups represented at DEVOXX; We had 60 people in the room with James. Detailed list of topics discussed by timing marks in the MP3 recording. MP3 is 19MB to download and is 40+ min long. Here's bits and pieces, so here is the disclaimer: Please Listen to the MP3 before making any judgments/opinions of the transcript....

Here's a temporary link to MP3 (I'll move the file to java.net later -- HOUSTON): http://file-hosting-online.com/index.php/files/get/uu1J1Qy474/devoxx09-jugbof-james.mp3

00:00 - 03min 10 sec -- discussion by Michael Van Riper (Silicon Valley Web Users Group - SVWUG), Kevin Nilson (SVWUG), Bert Ertmann (Dutch JUG nljug.org) sharing their experiences at the Oracle Open World meetings with Oracle User Groups and Oracle User Group Program and OTN personnel.

03min 10 sec - 05min 35 sec Introduction of James Gosling.... then Gosling; Gosling reacts to JUG leader discussion about Oracle User Groups.
Gosling:"So there is no interesting question that I can answer here....[but] You guys have been talking about JUGs and Oracle....they're just figuring this [JUG community] thing out ....their heart seems to be in the right place and it does....Oracle comes from a remarkably different space....their notion of a person from their user group is someone who wears suspenders who knows what 'slash-slash-go-dot-sys-in-dd' is.... and if anybody knows what that means then leave now...so I just disqualified myself...but it's IBM360JCL...."

05min 35 sec - 08min 14 sec James Gosling gets into the Q & A....
[JUG Ldr] When can you come to the Riviera JUG in Nice France... "
Gosling: "I'm going to this smart card conference in Paris tomorrow...Yeah Aaron is the right contact [for you guys to get a hold of me]..it's not hard to get to me to France...but then I have to tell my wife.... "
[JUG Ldr Question] JavaOne?
Gosling: "There is nothing I can say about JavaOne...there are piles of undecided stuff...and some of the math at this point is going depend on the EU...."
[JUG Leader Question] Is there anything we can do to help with this process?
Gosling: Letter writing campaigns help...you know... 'Hi Larry... I really wish...' --- Umm whether or not it will make a difference or not I don't know... can't hurt... "

08min 14 sec - 11min 49 sec JUG Leader discussion with James about how the Java interacts with its community...
[JUG Ldr] "....might not be a wise decision to not to end JavaOne until they figure out how it works...and run it for awhile... Gosling: "So you are talking to the wrong guy here... "

[JUG Leader comment] "....I don't know much about Oracle database...or Oracle...it doesn't seem to me like they are a very innovative company anymore...they seem to buy other companies and they take their innovation but I might be wrong. But Sun looked more like an innovative company not convinced that Oracle is really good at innovation What is going to happen with Java? We're seeing all these new languages...If Java 7 doesn't come to 2011 or beyond there are other guys in town now....."
Gosling: "... So yeah you know...There's kind nothing useful I can say here...other than the guys at Oracle are not idiots, right. They are actually more innovative than you might think they just don't parade it around... their core business has been around a database and the kind of innovations that they care about like weird clustering stuff and performance tuning that they do... most of that is not something that matters to the larger [Java] community... I think it is a completely open question what is going to happen....When I joined Sun, I really wanted to go work for a research lab...and Sun was more like a research lab than any of the real research labs... being at Sun for 25 some odd years is kinda like being a grad student... there is definitely gonna be a culture collision...and who knows..."

11min 49 sec - 18min 25 sec [JUG Leader question] "....So James do you think that Java is becoming the new COBOL?...that's the first question...and the second one: there was a very nice presentation from Oracle yesterday with a lot of statistics about the JBDC driver from Oracle contain 1048 findbugs warnings...what's your comment?...."
Gosling: "...Ahhhh what was the first question?....[crowd laughter]....Is Java becoming the new COBOL?... Um...Well in some sense it has...if only because like some really scary fraction of global commerce happens in Java apps...that's kinda frightening....Umm by no means is Java anywhere near stagnant as COBOL has become....There are some things [in Java] that has become hard to move forward -- the language... One of the problems of being a community is that there are a lot of voices... and we took a previous run at Closures...and that got... spectacularly weird...with luck the sort of simpler one that Mark [Reinhold] is trying to get through...will work out better... When you got as many developers as Java has.. it's phenomenal how hard it is to get anything through...and it's because there are so many people who actually care... You can take an absolutely obscure corner of the Java universe...and there are thousands of people who care... "
[JUG Leader] "Corba?"....
Gosling: "...you know Corba is surprising...because I keep finding people who are actually using Corba...They, on average, never want to admit it...because it is the most un-trendy thing around...but I keep finding people who are using Corba for large scale data marshaling because it is better than xml for moving stuff around... so like the the large Hadron Collider... big bags of corba...because it's way faster than any xml encoder...and there are similar things [in Java] like the calendar class who uses all of the calendar class... Well? most of asia... it is unbelievable hard to find something that nobody cares about...

18min 25 sec - 22min 50 sec
[JUG Leader] "...so James... one of the things Aaron is doing at the [DEVOXX] conference is he is polling people with this question: [to James] What is your greatest concern for Java right now? ......"
[JUG Ldr again] "....and it got me thinking... I am a big web services guy [at etrade] and I went to JavaOne (2) years ago when they talked about servlets3...this year they had the same servlets3 presentation...and here at DEVOXX they had they same presentation... and we have the same information from 2004.... so I am concern that we're not able to move forward...."
Gosling: "....ok...and then they had a debate...at least most of the servlet update stuff...."
[JUG Leader interupts James] "...and I was so excited for that...BUT...that was 3 years ago..."
Gosling: "...Yeah...but you know, but EE6 actually got that....but look at WHO you got to agree [to these changes]...right? And that's kinda the quandary right... "
James goes on talk about the JCP, Expert Groups and the Executive Committee...
Gosling: "...So were just kinda barreling ahead with JDK7...so again there are all these people that care.. .and some of these people are like IBM and Oracle... and at some level they cooperate and at some level they do not... and you get these communities that are a mixture of all these interests...it is a discussion that is hard to get to closure om......it is not like arguing with your friends about lunch..."
[JUG leader] "...yeah and then you get the non-technical guy that comes in and says: 'here's what we're gonna do'...."
Gosling: "...Yeah...and that's how technical discussion often are... because if the answer is clear the engineers, they are logical folks they would just go and do....but when you got two things that are sorta the same... engineers kinda get locked up...and then literally the right thing to do is flip a coin....having the boss come in and flip a coin is ok by me..."

22min 50 sec - 25min 00 sec James Gosling talks about the JCP....and the concept of Open JCP...and lot of "undecided things"....

25min 00 sec - 32min 00 sec
Gosling: " What is my biggest concern for Java?" -- Actually, I think...the previous question about Java turning into COBOL...and then there are these comments about these other languages coming along...one of the issues I have is that they are very domain specific... they do one thing really well... which is like never the kind of stuff that I work on...I think there are a pile of things we can do the JVM without breaking the backwards compatibility...that would make life a lot easier for people...but could you get the crowd to go 'Yeah, that's a good idea'?.... I would really be depress if that Java was the last language ever invented that would take over the general purpose space... [Gosling on] Scala... I think Stephan [Janssen] captured the problem in his keynote [Stephan Janssen -- DEVOXX Organizer mentioned that the Bill Venners SCALA DEVOXX08 talk on Parlays.com is the most viewed video - perhaps because people have to watch it several times to actually understand it]
Gosling: "...that's my number one concern with Scala...
[James comments on Bill Venners Scala talk]... Well...you gotta watch the talk 5 times...in that language direction there is a big ease of use problem and I don't know how actually to capture it..."
James talks next about backwards compatibility...
Gosling: " It is unbelievably tempting to do that [break backward compatibility]... like Python did that recently... be honest....what it really did was fork Python... there's this non-backward compatible version of python...and then there are people who have a million lines of python code say... I'm not going there anytime soon...so that literally forked python right?... there's the old python train, people are still bug fixing that... some people will be going over... but there are something we can do that for Java...but we'd have to build an absolutely bullet proof transition tool....for some things that's doable for some things it is not... like there is a whole category of things that one can do like around typing for example...one of the ones that's always been out there on my favorite list for a long time is replace like a:=5 is the same thing as int a=5...so its a declare and assign...I wrote a blog entry about that several years ago...and for things like that you can write a NetBeans refactoring module that will find all of them and just do it.....and clean up a lot of code... you add things like operator overloading so I once implemented operator overloading in javac and its actually kind of depressing how few things where you find that operator overloading would make a difference except if you do operator overloading on subscripting and make them map to like get and put on hash tables and I actually did write a little NetBeans refactering that would go through all our code and find all the uses of hash tables and collections that could be refacturing into using operator overloading and was huge... and actually made the code a whole lot cleaner.... everytime I brought up operator overloading the ex-C++ programmers started throwing knives at me [audience laughter]..... "

32min 30 sec - 42min 30 sec (MORE breakdown of topics and updates later. or listen to the MP3 -- HOUSTON)

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